High vanadium (S60V, S90V, S110V0) blades

E

Eyeofpy

Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
220
I like Phil Wilson's knives for their fantastic wear resistance and excellent geometry.
And I wonder why he has no real competitors. Can somebody make 20 pcs of heat treated S90V or S60V or S110V blank blades? My interest is not theoretical. It's practical and I ready to pay reasonable price for mentioned 20 blades.

If somebody can do it, please make me an offer to 00avk00 at gmail dot com
If nobody, please explain - WHY???
 
Are you looking for someone to provide 20 blanks of the same design as his knives?

I wasn't aware that there were no other makers successfully marketing fillet, hunting or kitchen knives...
 
If you're asking why more makers don't work with the specific alloys you mentioned, I can only guess. I do know that the only high-vanadium steel I've worked with (CPM-3V) is a real bear to finish after it's heat-treated. So I finish it up beforehand and have it HT'ed by a firm that uses vacuum ovens that keep the steel extremely clean (very little post-HT work required). Frankly, it's not a big deal if the maker has access to pro-level HT equipment and the user has modern sharpening equipment or just a fairly large dose of patience.

If you want similar designs to what Mr Wilson offers, I don't see a big problem with that. What "rip off"? :confused: There's nothing on his site that hasn't been done in a very similar manner by hundreds of other makers. Am I missing something here? Mr. Wilson's knives are all smart, efficient designs that have been around for a very long time.

EDIT: I'm only going by what I see on Phil's website. His thoughts on edge geometry, balance etc. are right on the money. :thumbup:
 
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I made these three out of Vanadis 10. (.8 More Vanadium than S110V)


IMAG0067.jpg
 
AcridSaint said:
Are you looking for someone to provide 20 blanks of the same design as his knives?
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Of course not, I mean not his design, but ideology: full flat ground, thin edge, small angle between grinds. All what you need if you prefer use your knife as a good cutter, not as an axe or pry bar.

Will Leavitt said:
Why? Because makers don't like ripping designs off of other makers.
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Please re-read my first post. What my words do you interpret as the request of copying of Phil's design? I am talking about the idea of working with wear resistant steels. It seems it's not too popular. And I am asking - why?

james terrio said:
If you're asking why more makers don't work with the specific alloys you mentioned, I can only guess. I do know that the only high-vanadium steel I've worked with (CPM-3V) is a real bear to finish after it's heat-treated. So I finish it up beforehand and have it HT'ed by a firm that uses vacuum ovens that keep the steel extremely clean (very little post-HT work required). Frankly, it's not a big deal if the maker has access to pro-level HT equipment and the user has modern sharpening equipment or just a fairly large dose of patience.
If you want similar designs to what Mr Wilson offers, I don't see a big problem with that. What "rip off"? :confused: There's nothing on his site that hasn't been done in a very similar manner by hundreds of other makers. Am I missing something here? Mr. Wilson's knives are all smart, efficient designs that have been around for a very long time.
EDIT: I'm only going by what I see on Phil's website. His thoughts on edge geometry, balance etc. are right on the money. :thumbup:
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James, thank you for the detailed answer. I think you are right, hi-tech steels have to be heat treated in high-tech ovens: stability of term and thermal conditions, less surface oxidizing (and less afterwork) are enough reasons for heat treating in vacuum ovens.
What as for sharpening, it’s my hobby and I can say steadily: diamonds eat all :rolleyes:. If I need to re-sharp my high vanadium blade, I use diamonds, if I need to finish, I use silicon carbides. S110V do not let to get very sharp edge as easy as ATS-34 or Sanvik’s for example (those steels easy to sharp to hair splitting sharpness) , but high vanadium steels can be sharpened to shaving sharpness with no problem and it’s always enough for any job excluding hair splitting ;).
You are right, Mr Wilson’s designs are very simple, rational and functional. It’s instruments, not showpieces. And you are right again, his knives are excellent for the money. But he can not make more than he can make, but market can eat MUCH more. That’s the reason of my wonder, why makers usually do not work in this direction and the reason why I am here – I need wear resistant blades.

Carl_First_Timer said:
I made these three out of Vanadis 10. (.8 More Vanadium than S110V)[/IMG]
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Good job Carl. You are right, Vanadis 10 is a good answer of Bohler-Uddelholm to high Vanadium Crucible steels. But I think it’s more correct to compare it with CPM 10V. S110V contains more Chromium and it’s corrosion resistant steel inspite of huge % of Carbon in it. Do you have some experience how Vanadis 10 resists to corrosion? I sure better than 10V (8% vs 5.25% of Chromium), but how it works in real life? Can we discuss details of my order in e-mail?

Guys, sorry for my mistakes (I sure it’s enough in my text) I am from Russia and my English not good enough.
I opened to offers and if someone have thoughts about high vanadium steel knifemaking, let’s develop it here. I sure it’s interesting for many users – your potentional customers.

Thanks,
Andrey
 
I don't know, but could the price of the steel make it less attractive? Is it more difficult to heat treat or does it cost more to heat treat it? If it takes more time to make a knife because the steel is more difficult work with then the price has to go up. Maybe it's basic economics that can explain why High vanadium (S60V, S90V, S110V0) steel isn't used more.

Obviously I don't know much about this steel. How much better is it than some of the other more commonly available steels?

- Paul Meske, Wisconsin
 
I'm pretty sure just about any maker here could provide full flat ground knives heat treated in any steel you prefer. That's not going to be too hard to come by, finding someone who will sell them unfinished may be.

I also think it's fairly common amongst knifemakers to do this type of grind, even though you may see a lot of hype about prybar type knives. I've never seen those type of knives offered as hunters or kitchen knives, let alone fillet knives.

Now, I will also go ahead and say that I don't feel that a flat grind is necessary for a good cutter. I've gotten more than enough feedback to keep me of that mind, but I won't knock flat grinds, they do just seem "right" on some knives.
 
lonepine said:
I don't know, but could the price of the steel make it less attractive?
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High-alloy steels do indeed cost more upfront, take longer to grind and put more wear-and-tear on machinery, and so forth than simpler steels. Compared to 420HC for instance, the difference would be HUGE if you were looking at making a run of several thousand, like the big factories do. But for a single knife or even a run of 100 blades, it's much more palatable. And of course the performance difference between 420HC, Aus-6 and the like, compared to really nice cutlery steels is well worth it.

Availability may be another issue; I honestly don't know if those particular alloys are in current production or in stock at the usual knifemaking suppliers. I know the newer Crucible S35VN is available and I've heard very good things about it.

It's almost never cost-effective for an individual maker to heat-treat batches of more than a few blades in the small kilns we typically have. I know of at least two professional firms that can HT such steels very well, Paul Bos and Peters' Heat-Treating. They're both set up to do large batches, including cryogenic treatment and both companies have an excellent reputation for quality. They're both expensive if you only want a couple blades done, but of course it gets rapidly more affordable when you have them do 5, 10, or more blades at a time. I haven't gotten the invoice yet, but I expect my current batch of 28 blades to come back from Peters' at around $8-10/blade including shipping both ways. That's not bad at all!
 
AcridSaint said:
I'm pretty sure just about any maker here could provide full flat ground knives heat treated in any steel you prefer. That's not going to be too hard to come by, finding someone who will sell them unfinished may be.
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Very true, there are plenty of makers on this forum alone who can grind and heat-treat excellent blades in any steel you like, as long as they can get it.
Whether or not they want to do a batch of 20 un-handled blanks depends on how busy they are and if they're comfortable having someone else finish their blades. That's not a "glamorous" idea, it's simply a matter of providing quality skilled labor.
 
Eyeofpy said:
Of course not, I mean not his design, but ideology: full flat ground, thin edge, small angle between grinds. All what you need if you prefer use your knife as a good cutter, not as an axe or pry bar.


Please re-read my first post. What my words do you interpret as the request of copying of Phil's design? I am talking about the idea of working with wear resistant steels. It seems it's not too popular. And I am asking - why?

Thanks,
Andrey
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Ahhh I did misinterpret your request, usually when someone names a specific maker and asks for a blade I assume that they want a copy of one of his patterns. I do deeply apologize.

I'm a bladesmith so I don't work those steels, James Terrio hit the nail on the head with the wear and tear on equipment (and sanity) of the "super steels".

Most of us are creatures of habit and prefer the steels we know best. New steel types often require a learning curve that can become expensive in time and expendables in the shop. Time is the most valuable thing we have.

Best of luck in your search and my apologies again for my mistake.
 
lonepine said:
I don't know, but could the price of the steel make it less attractive? Is it more difficult to heat treat or does it cost more to heat treat it? If it takes more time to make a knife because the steel is more difficult work with then the price has to go up. Maybe it's basic economics that can explain why High vanadium (S60V, S90V, S110V0) steel isn't used more.
Obviously I don't know much about this steel. How much better is it than some of the other more commonly available steels?
- Paul Meske, Wisconsin
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Paul you are right vanadium monsters are more expensive at any stage of producing. But usually you get what you pay for. This rule works for computers, photo cameras, shoes, cars etc. And I know enough people who ready to pay for top level product. Here I mean product’s perfomance, not it’s design.
What as for steels, just read this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...strated-CATRA-results-for-six-Crucible-steels
Vanadium monster’s perfomance compared to well known S30V.
AcridSaint said:
Now, I will also go ahead and say that I don't feel that a flat grind is necessary for a good cutter. I've gotten more than enough feedback to keep me of that mind, but I won't knock flat grinds, they do just seem "right" on some knives.
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It’s very interesting comment. Can you explain what type of grind is the best for a good cutter and why? Hollow ground? Convex ground? Or may be hamaguri-ba?
james terrio said:
I honestly don't know if those particular alloys are in current production or in stock at the usual knifemaking suppliers.
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James, just look at this:
http://www.alphaknifesupply.com/zdata-bladesteel.htm
I sure it’s not the only supplier of high vanadium steels.
Will Leavitt said:
Ahhh I did misinterpret your request, usually when someone names a specific maker and asks for a blade I assume that they want a copy of one of his patterns. I do deeply apologize.
I'm a bladesmith so I don't work those steels, James Terrio hit the nail on the head with the wear and tear on equipment (and sanity) of the "super steels".
Most of us are creatures of habit and prefer the steels we know best. New steel types often require a learning curve that can become expensive in time and expendables in the shop. Time is the most valuable thing we have.
Best of luck in your search and my apologies again for my mistake.
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Will, no problem, I just will expound my thoughts more clearly.
You are right our time is our nonrenewable resource, that is why I (as a knife user) prefer to sharpen my knives once in 2-4 weeks (when my knife stopped to shave my hand it must be sharpened). Someone talks about the advantage of easy sharpening of ordinar steels, but easiness of sharpening is just a metter of you have or you don’t have good abrasives for any wear resistant steel.

To be honest the main goal of my thread is to actuate makers to get the habit of working with steels which gives to customers (me) pleasure of a loooooooong sharpness.
 
Hollow, convex grinds will make fine cutters. The type of grind you want will depend largely on the application, but I'd venture to guess that 90+% of the cutting done with custom knives will not see an appreciable difference from one grind to the next and will be much more dependent on the edge geometry, give that the stock is the same thickness and other conditions are similar.

Now, when you say "hamaguri-ba", I assume you mean ”蛤刃” pronounced はまぐりば　but written はまぐりは、meaning clamshell or convex grind.
 
AcridSaint said:
Now, when you say "hamaguri-ba", I assume you mean ”蛤刃” pronounced はまぐりば　but written はまぐりは、meaning clamshell or convex grind.
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There's something wrong with your keyboard, the letters are coming out all squiggly.


:D
 
james terrio said:
There's something wrong with your keyboard, the letters are coming out all squiggly.


:D
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The best part about Japanese input support on Mac is that it will suddenly change into Japanese without me asking it to ;) So, sometimes people do get "squiggly" stuff instead of words :(
 
patriqq said:
Usually a "blank" implies a profile only. You want the bevels ground?
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Yes I do.

Carl_First_Timer said:
They are Wire EDM. I cheated. The stuff was already hard.
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Carl, was it round before Wire EDM cutting? I couldn't find flat Vanadis 10 bars. Can you tell us where you ordered Vanadis 10? Have you tested it? If yes, what are your impressions?

james terrio said:
There's something wrong with your keyboard, the letters are coming out all squiggly.
:D
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Hi James, have you got my e-mail? Can you answer?
 
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