Historical review of Buck 110 pivots and bushings?

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pinnah

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Can anybody give or point me to a review of the various pin and bushing assemblies that Buck has used over the years?

I've found good information indicating that bushings were added with the 3 dot and that bushings have changed over the years.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/937926-Best-Years-for-the-110

Have also found another post in another forum suggesting a link between bushing wear and vertical play
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/knife_forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=26401

I really, really don't a thread filled with gripes and groans about Buck. Please use the other thread for that.

At this point, I'm just trying to understand what was changed with respect to the pivot pins and bushings over the years.

Thanks,
 
I have taken apart two dots that have bushings. The youngest 110 I've seen with the steel (not sure composition) coloured bushing was an 86. I believe they are bronze somewhere after that.
 
Jared,

Thanks for the reply.

Based on what you have seen...

Are deformed/worn bushing associated with vertical blade play? Duane and Muskrat both have indicated this is what they've seen.

Do you notice any difference in how the knives perform with the steel bushings vs the bronze bushings? I would expect that the bronze bushings make for a noticeably smoother open/close but that the steel is less likely to deform under load?

[Aside for those with an interest in mechanical bushings, the Weinmann/Dia-Compe 610 centerpull brake (for bikes) used plastic bushing. They were very smooth but the brakes had some degree of lateral play under hard braking. Some folks replace these plastic bushings with bronze bushings for less deformation.]
 
Pinnah, the most noticeable wear I have seen is to the pivot pin, usually on a roughly used or plumb wore down blade, there will be a ring cut into that pin. Usually, from what I have seen, replacing the pin will get rid of some, if not all of this play. But not always all of it. But I'm just a guy who mangles knives ;)
 
I cant be sure, but I would say it could be a combo of that and spring fatigue over time. Also as Duane says pin wear. I would say your assumptions about the two types is correct.
 
I'm sure if you have a knife that's worn out Buck will help you out.
 
I've seen bushings on 3 dots and newer blades. Not to say they are not on 2 dot blades, I've just not found them. Still, I've not taken a lot of 3 dots apart. If its wear that one is attempting to correct, I'd replace the pivot pin and bushing. This should go a long way toward improving it. DM
 
It would be great to see some internal pictures of the bushing system through the years if anyone has them.Thanks.
 
Thanks for the info folks. Buck is great with their warranty no doubt about it. Prefer to keep that discussion in the other thread though.


Two more questions come to mind....

1) Can any of you knife mechanics speak to the pros and cons of brass vs steel pivot PINs. My old Schrades have steel (colored) pins. Very noticeable in terms of aesthetics. Obviously steel pins can be peened just like brass, as it gets used often in slip joints, correct? Are steel pins less prone to wear than brass pins? (I would have to think so.)

2) Is there any indication that older bushingless versions were more durable in terms of vertical play? Or is the reputation of the older knives just an example of the "survivor effect" in which the old knives from that era that are still kicking around just happen to be the toughest (for whatever reason) so we can't really say that their bushingless construction is why they're surviving?
 
Robert Ptacel said:
It would be great to see some internal pictures of the bushing system through the years if anyone has them.Thanks.
Click to expand...

Here's a couple of quick shots for you Robert...

IMG_2935.jpg



In this next shot, a sneaking suspicion of mine is confirmed, that the Bushings actually were, as Jerad stated, introduced some time during the latter part of the two dot 110, and 112 timeline.


IMG_2930.jpg


forgive the grinding of the tang, this blade was installed on a piece of maple and re purposed, to be used as a wedge for separating "things".
the point shown is that it was just a simple 1/8 inch hole through the tang back then.


IMG_2932.jpg


My aha moment, is that my first 112 was indeed a two dot. This thread dug up an old fuzzy memory for me. when I was younger and had that two dot, I used to snap it open by holding the blade and flipping the handle down, as it loosened up, eventually I could just flick my wrist to deploy the blade. well, wouldn't ya know, it developed a bunch of blade play. My dad was a tool & die man/ machinist. He walked me through re pinning that pivot when I was about 16 years old...I remember dropping the bushing when I pulled the blade out...cellar machine shop and dirt floor...shavings, dirt and all, I had to do a magnet sweep to find that little bugger. That knife served me for several years after that and followed me into the Coast Guard where I used it a lot while on Deck Force...


I knew that by the timeline in Joe's notes and my age when I aquired it that it had to be a two dot, but read somewhere that bushings came in with the three dots...thanks to your thread Pinnah, a long distant memory was re discovered, and by digging through my pulled blades, I noticed the two dot bushing blade.
Thanx for this cool thread, at least to me anyway...
 
For what it's worth, Joe Houser mentions bushings in his first data sheet (see below). According to that, bushings weren't found on the early variations after the 3rd Version Variation 4. Interestingly, Joe doesn't mention bushings at all in his revised data sheet. Maybe he can help out with information.

Buck Folding Hunter, Model 110 Timeline 1964 to 1985
03-05-07

"First Version, (2 variations) Blade material 440C
Variation 1. (1964) Right hand horizontal stamp BUCK, steel one piece spacer/spring, thin (.085) blade, Butt, blade rivets and bushing integral to the right hand side, 2 brass inlay rivets, brass rocker rivet.
Variation 2. Same as variation 1 above except etched BUCK.


Second Version, (3 variations) Blade material 440C
Variation 1. Left hand stamped BUCK, bone hard fiber spacer, spring inserted into rocker, thick blade, Butt, blade rivets and bushing integral to the right hand side. 2 brass inlay rivets, brass rocker rivet.
Variation 2. Same as variation 1 above except blade rivet separate piece, blade bushing still integral to right hand side.
Variation 3. Same as variation 2 above except left hand stamped BUCK*


Third Version, (7 variations) Blade material 440C
Variation 1. Left hand stamped BUCK*, butt rivets, blade bushing, and spring holder integral to right hand side, blade rivet separate piece, spring inserted into spring holder. 2 brass inlay rivets, brass rocker rivet.
Variation 2. Same as variation 1 above except left hand stamped BUCK. (No dot)
Variation 3. (1967) Left hand stamped BUCK, U.S.A., butt rivets, blade bushing, and spring holder integral to right hand side, blade rivet separate piece, 2 brass inlay rivets, brass rocker rivet.
Variation 4. Same as variation 3 above except no inlay rivets.
Variation 5. Same as variation 3 above except one separate piece butt rivet, no blade bushing."
 
Very interesting bertl, each mention including a bushing notes" ( integral to right hand side) "
I wonder what this bushing looks like?
 
Sit,

I've been trying to visualize that bushing, too. I also think it's interesting that there is no mention of bushings in the updated data sheet. Maybe Joe can comment on that.
 
sitflyer said:
Here's a couple of quick shots for you Robert...

IMG_2935.jpg



In this next shot, a sneaking suspicion of mine is confirmed, that the Bushings actually were, as Jerad stated, introduced some time during the latter part of the two dot 110, and 112 timeline.


IMG_2930.jpg


forgive the grinding of the tang, this blade was installed on a piece of maple and re purposed, to be used as a wedge for separating "things".
the point shown is that it was just a simple 1/8 inch hole through the tang back then.


IMG_2932.jpg


My aha moment, is that my first 112 was indeed a two dot. This thread dug up an old fuzzy memory for me. when I was younger and had that two dot, I used to snap it open by holding the blade and flipping the handle down, as it loosened up, eventually I could just flick my wrist to deploy the blade. well, wouldn't ya know, it developed a bunch of blade play. My dad was a tool & die man/ machinist. He walked me through re pinning that pivot when I was about 16 years old...I remember dropping the bushing when I pulled the blade out...cellar machine shop and dirt floor...shavings, dirt and all, I had to do a magnet sweep to find that little bugger. That knife served me for several years after that and followed me into the Coast Guard where I used it a lot while on Deck Force...


I knew that by the timeline in Joe's notes and my age when I aquired it that it had to be a two dot, but read somewhere that bushings came in with the three dots...thanks to your thread Pinnah, a long distant memory was re discovered, and by digging through my pulled blades, I noticed the two dot bushing blade.
Thanx for this cool thread, at least to me anyway...
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for the pictures! What I can't understand would be the advantage of a steel bushing against a brass pivot pin.I can see the logic of brass/bronze bushing against brass pin.
 
My thoughts are that they may have moved away from the steel and to the bronze bushing for a smoother action...it would seem logical.
 
Generally, with bushed joints, you want different metals to prevent galling. Stainless/bronze is a pretty common combination and works well. Brass/brass or brass/bronze might gall ("pick up" is another old term for it), and make the knife feel rough.

-Ed
 
Where is the most likely place for deformation associated with vertical play to occur?
a) The inner diameter of the blade pivot hole?
b) The bushing?
c) The pivot pin (where it contacts the bushing?
d) The pin pivot hole on the bolster material? (Maybe more of an issue with Eoclites and Bucklite Max?

What confuses me most here is what, if anything, has really changed over the years? Old Bucklites and old 110s/112s have a good reputation for not developing play. Maybe that's more legend than reality? No dig in suggesting that in anyway. Just trying to understand what has changed that might be associated with a greater propensity for play developing.
 
"Just trying to understand what has changed that might be associated with a greater propensity for play developing."

If true it could be that more people are mistreating the knives.
 
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