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Historical Samurai Swords

J

John Galba

Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Messages
22
Greetings everybody,
Firstly, I would really like to thank this forum for all the great help and convenient answers, regarding my previous thread.

This thread is going to concentrate on the historical authenticity and value of my two historical samurai blades that I posses. The reason why I started this thread is because I could not find a historian or an adequate forum that would answers my questions (if anybody knows a better place to deal with this topic, please leave a note.)

As a collector of historical weapons I got hold of two samurai blades each with its own sheath. I have done a bit of research and reading through my book called Secrets of the Samurai: The Martial Arts of Feudal Japan, written by Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook and internet. So far, from what I could tell, both swords are more "tachi" style blades, rather than "katana" blades. Quote from Wikipedia (URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachi): "The tachi style of swords preceded the development of the katana and the first use of the word katana to indicate a blade different from tachi appears toward the end of the twelfth century." This would probably mean that they are much older and thus more likely valuable than a regular historical katana.

In addition, overall, tachi blades seem to be more valuable because they are depicted on highly ranked Samurais and Daimyos on most of the illustrations. These blades have a variety of symbols representing their clan or family and were carried down from father to son and so forth. Each blade has its own shape, ornaments and unique artistic features on all parts of the sword (the handle, hilt and blade + sheath). There are specific signs and patterns on the blades from which an expert could tell the origin, age (era), clan, family (or dynasty), name of the smith, process of forging, material, value and variety of other things just from looking at the blade.

Blade A:
Depiction of a particular fish with the background of branches of some vegetation.
A five star flower emblem (typical for WWII katanas).
The blade has more of "damascus" finish to it, rather than having a single wavy line.

Blade B:
Depiction of several monks sitting in various position on the handle and sheath. There is a special finish of bronze or something on each of the those figures.
A flowery emblem or symbol with three leafs. It seems to be the emblem of Sakai clan (Obama).

I do not want to speculate more about these blades, because these are only my observations and I am not an expert in this field. Therefore, I would like to ask a professional who knows what he is talking about.

If anyone is a serious expert and knows more about these blades please leave a comment and I will send some pictures for you to judge.

Thank you in advance,
Best Regards
 
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Dear sir,
Might I suggest that you post some photos of your swords. If anyone is able to provide information, they will most likely do so.
 
Yes, but I am afraid that I am not able to do so because I am not a Golden Member. I can only send them by e-mail if so.
 
Post them to a site like imgur.com and then link the pics by using the "IMG" and "/IMG" tags. That should work for any membership level I believe.
 
You need to post some pics through photobucket or imgur. I can just about gaurantee you won't get any interest without pics.
 
I would second or third the idea that you need to post pictures of your swords, we do have at least two guys here that might qualify as knowledgeable on Japanese swords, one who you might even consider an expert. The rest of us might have some reasonably educated guesses. For many more knowledgeable folks you probably want to visit the nihonto forums. I'm curious, how do you know that the swords have any historical significance?
 
Don't feel bad. Got two similar fakes.
Good thing is they were cheaper than buying a similar sized piece of steel. No idea how they can be so cheap considering material and labor cost of folding the steel?
Anyways good thing to learn sharpening on or cutting and grinding a few smaller knifes out of it. :)
 
Thank you for your quick responses guys :thumbup:. My idea was not to tell more about these swords, because I was looking forward for your first impressions, so let me add some aditional information.

My grandfather brought these blades to Slovakia from Russia in 1944. He "got" :D them from an unkwnown Russian soldier who fought on the eastern Russian front.

I suppose that the age of these swords is approximetely 100 years, because at the time there were not so many (if any) Chinese and/or Indian fakes out there. Furthermore, I doubt that these are Russian fakes made during the war, when there was a lack of capital, time and demand for such swords. The demand and interest for WWII samurai blades started to only rise during the end of the 20th century. That is the time when the production of fakes started to become a good idea.
 
Russia, 1944?
As far as I remember from History Channel the Soviet invasion of Manchuria happened in 1945.
Before that Russia didn't fight against Japan because Stalin agreed only to fight against the Japanese after Germany is defeated since the Germans were the bigger threat to the Soviet Union at that time.
Some people say that Russia entering the war against Japan in 1945 scared the Japanese more than the two nuclear bombs and that this was the real reason for their capitulation...
Before 1945 there has been a war between Russia and Japan, only around 1905 I think.
Therefore I think it is unlikely that it was captured from some Japanese officer. It could easily have been a tourist piece if you don't want to call it fake and they have been around for really long. And the fittings on yours look better than most of the current China fakes.
Still look at the Tsubas, they look cast to me. The Hamon lines look funny and so on. Maybe it was just one of the swords which they made in a hurry in WW2 to supply all the Japanese officers? But then again if your grandfather had it already in 1944 were would the unknown Russian Soldier have captured one if Russia didn't fight the Japanese yet?

Did you look at the link from Lee Bray? http://www.jssus.org/nkp/fake_japanese_swords.html They explain a few more indicators.

Would you be interested in removing the handle? Its super easy and maybe you will find some cool file marks or inscriptions on the tang?


ps:
John Galba said:
He "got" :D them from an unkwnown Russian soldier who fought on the eastern Russian front.
Click to expand...
":D"?
I hope "got" meant some kind of trade and not what I am thinking, which would certainly not be ":D" (even if I don't like commy soldiers as the next guy it's still a human and on top of that one who had to risk his life to get rid of Nutzis)
 
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Jens Schuetz said:
Russia, 1944?
As far as I remember from History Channel the Soviet invasion of Manchuria happened in 1945.
Before that Russia didn't fight against Japan because Stalin agreed only to fight against the Japanese after Germany is defeated since the Germans were the bigger threat to the Soviet Union at that time.
Some people say that Russia entering the war against Japan in 1945 scared the Japanese more than the two nuclear bombs and that this was the real reason for their capitulation...
Before 1945 there has been a war between Russia and Japan, only around 1905 I think.
Therefore I think it is unlikely that it was captured from some Japanese officer. It could easily have been a tourist piece if you don't want to call it fake and they have been around for really long. And the fittings on yours look better than most of the current China fakes.
Still look at the Tsubas, they look cast to me. The Hamon lines look funny and so on. Maybe it was just one of the swords which they made in a hurry in WW2 to supply all the Japanese officers? But then again if your grandfather had it already in 1944 were would the unknown Russian Soldier have captured one if Russia didn't fight the Japanese yet?

Did you look at the link from Lee Bray? http://www.jssus.org/nkp/fake_japanese_swords.html They explain a few more indicators.

Would you be interested in removing the handle? Its super easy and maybe you will find some cool file marks or inscriptions on the tang?

ps: :D? I hope "got" meant some kind of trade and not what I am thinking which would certainly not be :D (even if I don't like commy soldiers as the next guy it's still a human and on top of that one who had to risk his life to get rid of some evil Nutzis)
Click to expand...

I am no sure whether the Russian soldier took the spoils of a dead Japanese officer during the Soviet invasion of Manchuria, traded something for the blades before the invasion, or received them as a gift way back then, but the blades must be at least from 1944. Perhaps, the blades were already made way before 1944, since as you mentioned, there was the Russo-Japanese War (1904 - 1905).

Both blades show signs of being very old. I lubricate the blades with silicon to protect them from corrosion. When I take a tissue to wipe the blade, it leaves a thick trace of black powder on the tissue, because the surface undergoes oxidation. In addition, there is some really nasty dirt and rust on the tsuba and other parts of the sword. Signs of tear and wear can be seen, by observing bumps and uneven surfaces on the handle.

I will try to look for some tutorial or instruction manuals for taking apart the blades (if you have some, please send them to me). Afterwards, I will post what is hidden under the handle and on the tang.
 
Cool. Should be exciting. :)
The pin can be pushed out and then the blade can be pulled out the handle. Place a round soft wooden cylinder on the pin and hammer it very lightly so it doesn't get scratched or break.


If it's from a Russian soldier it could only be from a high ranking officer because normal guys wouldn't have been allowed to run around with personal items as big as these :D

Have you seen the Movie "My Way"? A young Korean man forced to fight for Japan against Russia. Captured by the Russians and later forced to fight the Germans but fled to them. They let him work on reinforcing the coastal wall were he was captured around D day by the Americans who thought he was Japanese but later figured out he was Korean and then he lived in the US. True story.
To summarize it, stuff happens once in a while even if it's highly unlikely. :D
 
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I am no sword expert, but what you have just have to many red flags. First of all the stamped numbers on the habaki is a big red flag.

Also, the Tsubas are not wrapped at all. If one had to fight with these, they would slip out of their hands. I do not know what to call the little swivel thing on the end of the kashira, but traditionally that was meant to hold a sword knot. You see those swivels on calvary swords. It is where the sword knot was tied. The sword knot played a practical purpose besides being decorative. You only see those swivels on WWII officer and NCO swords.

The hamon looks along with the Damascus looks acid etched . A true folded sword's "folds" are less prominent and you can see the steel's fine crystallization in the sword. When you look close. It does not stand out like what yours has.

But the thing that is the red flag is the detail to the figures on the saya. the figures like the people and the fish lack detail. There is enough there, but a true sword master would have gone into more detail on the figures if this was a presentation sword. These look almost cut out and over layed.

I get a "feel" that theses are more a fine Indian katana knockoff than being Chinese. The metal work have more of an Indian flavor vs Chinese.

Again, I am no expert.

My vote is that they are old Indian / far east knock offs. They might be worth something due to the nice work on the swords. But I would bet that they are not family swords from Japan.

Ray
CR
 
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Battles between Soviet and Japanese forces in the period 1933-1939 escalated to corps-sized battles with many thousands of casualties. Generally, the Soviets held the battlefields afterwards - and the chance to loot.

When the Katana became popular, the number of Tachi being made slowed. It did not stop.

An overall Damascus appearance often means the sword is "tired" - polished down so that inner layering is visible.

Good swords were faked in the period when they were made and in the years since. It is as if you asked for the appraisal of a diamond over the Internet. The appraiser will want to handle the sword - extensively - unless it is obviously of little value.

Best of luck. Maybe you have old family blades captured on the field of Khalkhyn Gol.
 
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