Home chef/kitchen knife fanatic/folding knife enthusiast- seeking help “upgrading” from whetstones

[Henry lombard]

Hi and thanks for reading this.

‘in short, I’m contemplating upgrading from my 200-10,000 chosera -plus a couple stoups whetstones to some jig and am simply suffering paralysis by analysis. I like the precision of the wicked edge, possible more affordable options of the edge pro professional, or maybe the hapstone v3...

Why tou may ask? Well, although I’m better than most armatures with whetstones, I still struggle maintaining that exactly perfect 11,15,17, 20, 22 or whatever angle repetitively and am always micro-beveling (which I think is actually a really great approach to wicked sharp yet adding a bit or more sturdyness to the edge). Generally, every knife in my house is shaving sharp, a few of my white or blue steel Japanese knives I’d even call hair popping sharp ( am I biased? - yup). I’ve always enjoyed the zen of sharpening on a beautiful Japanese whetstone, but I’d like to really dial in some ultra precision to this hobby, and perhaps even start a side hustle sharpening wealthy suburbanite expensive kitchen knives to levels the owners have never seen before. If I do the side hustle, I realize I’ll drown in crappy edges coming in and would plan on reprofiling as needed on my tormek 2000 (ver.20 supergrinder) to save time. That tool originated as a plane sharpener for my woodworking home basement shop.

With the preamble out of the way, I’m looking for input on the following, or more?

1- wicked edge. I’ve had my eye on that setup for years because of the perceived absolute precision and frankly am heavily leaning that way. On the down side I’ve never really been a fan of diamond stones for better / harder steels and 12 degree edges as I have has some chi-ping / tear out but am willing to accept that it has a lot to do with user error. Also, the stone sets on WE are no doubt more expensive then what seems to be becoming the industry standard “ edge pro” format. The pro model in the stand seems great with the quick-angle adjustments but offers less acute grinding angels (15 v. 13 as I recall without the low angle adapter). Also, for my one knife, and possibly potential client knives with asymmetrical bevels, the 130 may be a better option. Any and all comments are greatly appreciated.

2. I’ve been reading about the edge-pro newer diamond matrix stones that seem to offer aggressiveness of diamonds with the feel and performance of high quality whetstones, and am very intrigued. Can people comment on speed and performance of these stones?

3. Hapstone R2 set-up with the vices that require what seems a good amount of steps to secure the knife in place, then regularly rotate the pivot to alternate knife edges. The concept seems pretty good, but some videos I’ve seen the system still seems a lot more “wobbly” than the wicked edge.

4. The defacto standard Edge pro professional system. The father of many of these jigs, but even with the now-included new-magnet holder, still seems like one is holding the knife in place much of the time and repeatability is inferior to the WE. Comments please.

Ugh. As I said earlier, I’m suffering paralysis by analysis but all in I’m looking at $800-$1600 sharpening system investment. The WE pro with 100, 1500, 2k, 3k diamonds, plus the edge refinement kits at least 1 and 2 - probably 3 as well, will get me to the $1800 mark pretty quickly. Similar if I go WE 130 pro pack 3 plus the couple refine the kits.

last- I should add, that using the water lubricated stones in the non WE systems “ upside down” seems a bit messy to if he slurry is anything like my messy bench stones sitting on a holder on top of a commercial heavy professional duty kitchen dirty dishes bin ( ~ 30” x 36” +-)

Let me know your thoughts please.

 

[UncleBoots]

I guess I can offer some thoughts here. I have a Hapstone R1 that I like very much, but wound up ordering a TSProf, because the Hapstone won't do the low angle for knives like fillet knives. Here's some points from all that.

The Hapstone is in no way "wobbly." It is very solid. That's one thing that appealed to me, its brute heavy solid nature, and I was not disappointed.

The TSProf took many months to arrive. I don't know whether that's typical, but there's someone on here who is a dealer for TSProf, and has things in stock, and I'd certainly go that way if I had to do it again. Oddly, during those months of wait, my sharpening skills locked in, and I no longer felt I needed a guided sharpener so much. But it's still really useful for setting known bevels, and re-beveling, and for sharpening annoying knives like cheap stainless steel. Also for scissors, which I still can't get a feel for doing freehand.

A lot of people love the Wicked Edge system, but it is the iPhone of guided sharpeners; it locks you into their system. Some would not care. I have an iPhone myself, and the lock-in is a good tradeoff for the unparalleled excellence of their software and hardware design and execution. Some would look yearningly at all of the varied options available to someone whose system can take Edge Pro-standard stones, and at the high cost of anything you get for the WE (and you need two of each), and wish they had gone another way. I did not consider the Wicked Edge because its sharpening motions seemed less likely to help me with my manual sharpening skills. Might be an illusion, might not be.

I'd love to say, as at least one forum member here would, that the TSProf is the nuts, and you should just go buy it, since you're in that price range, but I can't, because it arrived just in time for me to pack its distinctive Russian case into a box (I like to imagine that the Russian text on the box says "WARNING! Classified submarine plans inside!"), which is now sitting somewhere in a pile of boxes in my garage in my new house. I hope to have some fun with it someday soon.

 

[Henry lombard]

Hey uncle boots!

You’re killing me! Yea, I’ve been eyeballing the TsProf as well but didn’t want to throw yet another monkey wrench into the mix, but I’m glad you broached that item.

And the box actually reads, “WARNING, NUCLEAR MISSLE LAUNCH CODES CONTAINED INSIDE’. Lol

You’re right with your iPhone apology I believe. The we seems like a “ it just works” system while all the Edge Pro type set ups have a pleathers of available options. I used to love having all possible options available for me to choose the best in class, but eventually settled on the iPhone for its robust simplicity...

Tell me more about the limited low angle for filet knives. That’s interesting and a new thought. I’m assuming it’s because the blades are 3/4 +- inch wide so you can’t get enough of the vice on the blade with a limited amount of blade showing hence forcing a steeper grind angle to avoid grinding the vice? Is the TSProf that much better? I need to check out some more videos I guess. Thank you! I’ve only got one Henkee’s filet knife and it’s paper-cutting sharp ( more than paper-slicing) .

check out this very good paper IMHO ... http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Sharpness_Chart.pdf

Also, I appreciate your feedback that the Hapstone is built tough. Does the R2 suffer the same issue as the R1?

I so wish you had experience with the TSProf, but assume you as well have researched to death and mad the informed decision many months ago... Thanks for the feedback, it’s appreciated.

 

[UncleBoots]

The fillet knife problem is fixable, you just need fillet clamps. IIRC Hapstone had some prototypes of those a while back, but I have not kept track of where that stands. I suppose it is probable that they will exist at some point. The TSProf has them now.

Can't tell you anything about the R2, my only Hapstone experience is with the R1.

I can recognize the gleam in your eye, because I've had it in mine from time to time, but if you have still not committed a few weeks from now, it's likely I will have discovered my TSProf and acquired some opinions about it.

What I can tell you is that if I had gone with the WE, I'd probably have regretted it. I love to sharpen and play with various kinds of stones, and the sheer variety of what you can play with in Edge Pro standard size is very compelling from that point of view. But that's me. There are many, many very happy WE owners.

 

[000Robert]

I love my Wicked Edge 130 and wouldn't trade it for anything.

 

[Henry lombard]

Thanks. I’m leaning that way, but please elaborate why if you’re able to.

Do you ever wish you had optional stones available? Specifically the diamonds that are embedded in substrate like the edge pro diamond matrix stones?

Do you sharpen low-height blades like filet knives?

Is it basically because the system is so precise you get results beyond fantasy and therefore don’t care about the tech mumbo-jumbo and just love the results of what “the experts” offer?

 

[Henry lombard]

Also, sorry for the second posting, but would you get the 130 or the Gen 3 pro? I’m liking a lot about the pro, but like that the 130 will do a slightly lower ange as well as easily do asymmetrically ground knives... why please and thanks!

 

[000Robert]

Also, sorry for the second posting, but would you get the 130 or the Gen 3 pro? I’m liking a lot about the pro, but like that the 130 will do a slightly lower ange as well as easily do asymmetrically ground knives... why please and thanks!

That's why I chose the WE130 - the versatility with asymmetrical grinds, both sides are independent, and it sets lower on the table. I haven't started experimenting with asymmetrical grinds yet, but I do plan on it.
I'm not sure why anyone would want aftermarket stones but there may be some. I'm not very familiar with them. You can go to the WE forum and ask some of the experts that have been using the WE for years.
To answer your previous questions - I wanted a system that didn't require electricity. I watched many videos and did research on every system that I could find and figured that I would end up with a WE130 anyway, so I may as well save some money and buy it first.
I can sharpen just about any knife. I bought the Pro Pack III so it has the LAA ( Low Angle Adapter). The only blade that I can't really clamp up good is the tiny spey blades on my pocket knives.
I like how it clamps the blades vertically and I can work either side of the blade without moving the clamp. And when I took it apart to examine it, I loved it even more. The simple genius behind its design, and the quality of it. That kind of quality isn't cheap. I now actually think that it is worth more than it costs.
I also have aftermarket parts on mine that I bought from some of the guys on the WE forum. The stainless steel micro-adjusters increases the adjustability and look nice. Plus nice stone covers, ball joint dust boots, and stone stops that look and work good. Here is a recent photo of my WE130 setup.

 

[Henry lombard]

Robert, thanks.

I too seem to strongly lean WE but was thinking the gen3 pro as stated above, but a number of people have highly recommended the 130 for the independent angle adjustment I’m really now leaning that way and forgoing the “more professional look and feel” of the gen3. I’m tall. 6’5 on a short day so I was thinking I’d like the extra height of the cabinet/base.

The hapstone and edge pro and TSProf all seem too notch as well and I’m still very open to hearing compelling arguments to chose one of those systems. I believe the only advantage I may see is in the rather universal EP stone setup affording more options and (possibly) lower cost then the WE stones.
But man, the repeatability of the WE.... once I get a knife done the first time I suspect maintaining is a couple minutes unless I decide to reprofile or it somehow got abused.

When I get friends knives in that are completely trashed, I always head to my Tormek -powered system- to get a good start on the regrinding then I’ve been finishing on whetstones. If I choose to have a side hustle, I’d say I’m likely to do the same to have any chance of making more then $5 an hour for my time!

What stones / sequence have you settled on or at least turn to most often? Are you sticking with the stones/ media in the pro pack III? I was thinking of at least adding the edge refinement kit 2 and the highest 3k diamond stone.. thoughts? Ideas?

total sidebar - what are tou and anyone’s thoughts on charging a premium for a first time knife to be sharpened, or better yet giving a 25% or so discount if it’s a knife I’ve already worked on (so it’s a much quicker job for me)?

Anyway, I give myself small odds of actually doing a side hustle but If I could make some pocket money and pay for the sharpening hardware... hmmmm

 

[unwisefool]

I sharpen my kitchen knives on a long ceramic rod. Works great. I don't know if most people who are bringing you knives to sharpen will need the level of sharpness that you normally finish your own knives with. In fact they might damage a super fine edge even quicker. You might be ok with your current setup.

 

[Henry lombard]

Unwise,

Thanks so much for the input.

I agree that most people wouldn’t appreciate a polished edge and I’d have to generically grind at 20-22 angle, mostly, unless a conversation with a client results in an understanding that I can make the knife sharper but it won’t last as long... steel dependent of course.. so many variables.... but I also get great lasting edges by microbeveling a 20 deg after setting a narrow 15 degree.

sharpening on a honing rod you say.... I’m guessing it’s a toothy /cutty rod and you’re mostly maintaining a great edge....

 

[000Robert]

Robert, thanks.

I too seem to strongly lean WE but was thinking the gen3 pro as stated above, but a number of people have highly recommended the 130 for the independent angle adjustment I’m really now leaning that way and forgoing the “more professional look and feel” of the gen3. I’m tall. 6’5 on a short day so I was thinking I’d like the extra height of the cabinet/base.

The hapstone and edge pro and TSProf all seem too notch as well and I’m still very open to hearing compelling arguments to chose one of those systems. I believe the only advantage I may see is in the rather universal EP stone setup affording more options and (possibly) lower cost then the WE stones.
But man, the repeatability of the WE.... once I get a knife done the first time I suspect maintaining is a couple minutes unless I decide to reprofile or it somehow got abused.

When I get friends knives in that are completely trashed, I always head to my Tormek -powered system- to get a good start on the regrinding then I’ve been finishing on whetstones. If I choose to have a side hustle, I’d say I’m likely to do the same to have any chance of making more then $5 an hour for my time!

What stones / sequence have you settled on or at least turn to most often? Are you sticking with the stones/ media in the pro pack III? I was thinking of at least adding the edge refinement kit 2 and the highest 3k diamond stone.. thoughts? Ideas?

total sidebar - what are tou and anyone’s thoughts on charging a premium for a first time knife to be sharpened, or better yet giving a 25% or so discount if it’s a knife I’ve already worked on (so it’s a much quicker job for me)?

Anyway, I give myself small odds of actually doing a side hustle but If I could make some pocket money and pay for the sharpening hardware... hmmmm

I'm a short guy at 5' 10", but my chair is adjustable. Many people love the Gen 3 so I would never tell anyone not to choose it. It's just a personal choice I guess.
I haven't used the other systems except a cheap Ruixin. I only use it for scissors until I can afford to get the WE scissor adapter.
People complain about the price of WE stones but you have to remember that you are getting two stones, not just one like in most of those other sharpening systems. The two stones have two different grits.
I need to add the 50/80 stones first because every blade that I have clamped up needed to be reprofiled. It takes longer just using my 100 grit stones.
I like a toothy edge at 600 - 800 grit. I normally will only polish blade edges of a knife that I will collect and not use, like my Boker Plus Kalashnikov 74 Damascus Auto. I also bought a button lock for it but haven't decided if I want to install it or not.
If I was charging for sharpening knives, I would charge $40 for the first time because I know that I will have to reprofile it. And $10 to resharpen it if it has no damage to the blade. If the blade is damaged then it would just depend on how long I would have spend on it. I don't charge family and friends.

 

[Henry lombard]

What a gorgeous knife and beautiful edge!

I couldn’t see charging $40 for a knife unless it was under very special circumstances such as a restoration of a high-end blue paper steel Japanese custom knife. But I get your point, hand sharpening takes time. And even with 50/80 stones I believe. I’d most defiantly throw it in the tormek to get it sharp but with a concave grind. Then I’d only be taking off a small/smaller amount of steel by hand...

ps, love your quote “
Socialism only works in two places: In Heaven where it's not needed, and Hell where they already have it." - Ronald Reagan

How about “The most terrifying words in the English language are: I’m from the government and I’m here to help.”

 

[000Robert]

What a gorgeous knife and beautiful edge!

I couldn’t see charging $40 for a knife unless it was under very special circumstances such as a restoration of a high-end blue paper steel Japanese custom knife. But I get your point, hand sharpening takes time. And even with 50/80 stones I believe. I’d most defiantly throw it in the tormek to get it sharp but with a concave grind. Then I’d only be taking off a small/smaller amount of steel by hand...

ps, love your quote “
Socialism only works in two places: In Heaven where it's not needed, and Hell where they already have it." - Ronald Reagan

How about “The most terrifying words in the English language are: I’m from the government and I’m here to help.”

LOL! Yep, that is also one of my favorite Ronald Reagan quotes. Those words are even more terrifying nowadays!
I was still pretty new at using my WE130 then. I'm amazed and happy that I didn't round the tip off.
I decided to only put flat grinds on my knives in case I need to freehand sharpen one in the sticks or something. But the WE can put a convex edge on blades if you want to do it.

 

[Henry lombard]

Lol. Right!

but I was referring to a hollow being produced by a 200 ish mm grinding wheel, not the convex type found on some (think Chris Reeves...???) blades.
And yea, a bit toothy is often a good thing, but I guess 3000 is toothy compare to .025 micron!! It’s all relative isn’t it?

 

[000Robert]

Lol. Right!

but I was referring to a hollow being produced by a 200 ish mm grinding wheel, not the convex type found on some (think Chris Reeves...???) blades.
And yea, a bit toothy is often a good thing, but I guess 3000 is toothy compare to .025 micron!! It’s all relative isn’t it?

Yeah, I guess it depends on what you want.

 

[TwinStick]

Hi Henry.

I am certainly no expert but IMHO it is best to have a multitude of sharpening systems. I recently bought a Tormek T4 Bushcraft sharpener. I was going back and forth between the Tormek & the Wicked Edge.

Ultimately, I went with the Tormek because all my knives (100 or more) are outdoor knives and a lot of big choppers. Many had uneven grinds. Not only does it work fantastic for that, our kitchen knives have never been sharper. I had lots of sharpening stuff. Stones, puck for my axes, Gatco Deluxe Diamond sharpener. Because I have to save up for the Japanese waterstone for the Tormek, I am using the Tormek and finishing on my Gatco ceramic stone.

I absolutely love the Tormek. So much faster than doing it by hand. Many people are scared because they think it will grind their blade down to a nub. Not true at all. And, if that is a concern, the Japanese waterstone is the answer. Frankly, I honestly am pondering whether I even need it.

I literally have no hair left on my arms right now. I have easily been able to get every knife hair popping sharp, end to tip. 1095 CroVan, 440 stainless, 420 HC, 1075, D2 tool steel, S7 tool steel, 5160 tool steel, reg 1095.
I know that there are many levels above hair popping sharp but I haven't found a need for that yet. I am very happy with my purchase.

But the Wicked Edge Pro Gen 3 will get knives sharper. The Tormek Japanese waterstone is 4000 grit. It will put a mirrored edge on but a 0.025 diamond paste is like 16,000 grit. I will probably get a WE Pro system at some point before I die, just to play with.

Probably can't go wrong with what ever you choose. Good luck.

 

[000Robert]

Hi Henry.

I am certainly no expert but IMHO it is best to have a multitude of sharpening systems. I recently bought a Tormek T4 Bushcraft sharpener. I was going back and forth between the Tormek & the Wicked Edge.

Ultimately, I went with the Tormek because all my knives (100 or more) are outdoor knives and a lot of big choppers. Many had uneven grinds. Not only does it work fantastic for that, our kitchen knives have never been sharper. I had lots of sharpening stuff. Stones, puck for my axes, Gatco Deluxe Diamond sharpener. Because I have to save up for the Japanese waterstone for the Tormek, I am using the Tormek and finishing on my Gatco ceramic stone.

I absolutely love the Tormek. So much faster than doing it by hand. Many people are scared because they think it will grind their blade down to a nub. Not true at all. And, if that is a concern, the Japanese waterstone is the answer. Frankly, I honestly am pondering whether I even need it.

I literally have no hair left on my arms right now. I have easily been able to get every knife hair popping sharp, end to tip. 1095 CroVan, 440 stainless, 420 HC, 1075, D2 tool steel, S7 tool steel, 5160 tool steel, reg 1095.
I know that there are many levels above hair popping sharp but I haven't found a need for that yet. I am very happy with my purchase.

But the Wicked Edge Pro Gen 3 will get knives sharper. The Tormek Japanese waterstone is 4000 grit. It will put a mirrored edge on but a 0.025 diamond paste is like 16,000 grit. I will probably get a WE Pro system at some point before I die, just to play with.

Probably can't go wrong with what ever you choose. Good luck.

I thought about buying a Tormek myself, but I wanted a system that did not require electricity. But it looks like it would be a lot of fun to use.
I got tired of having bald arms and them looking weird, so I built a knife edge tester that uses 2" straps. In the photo I have some 2" Heavy Duty Polypropylene webbing in the edge tester. I have a roll of HD Polyester webbing as well. I still need to get some Nylon webbing.

 

[000Robert]

What a gorgeous knife and beautiful edge!

I couldn’t see charging $40 for a knife unless it was under very special circumstances such as a restoration of a high-end blue paper steel Japanese custom knife. But I get your point, hand sharpening takes time. And even with 50/80 stones I believe. I’d most defiantly throw it in the tormek to get it sharp but with a concave grind. Then I’d only be taking off a small/smaller amount of steel by hand...

ps, love your quote “
Socialism only works in two places: In Heaven where it's not needed, and Hell where they already have it." - Ronald Reagan

How about “The most terrifying words in the English language are: I’m from the government and I’m here to help.”

Oh yeah. At $40 for the first time the goal is that people won't be trying to give me junk. Obviously I don't want to sharpen knives for money.

 

[Henry lombard]

That’s an interesting idea... Thank you sir.

I bought my Tormek in 2002 ish for woodworking. It has served me well, but I quickly realized I like flat grinds as well as the zen of sorts of hand sharpening so I’ve collected a pile of nice whetstones. Now to add some Uber precision .....