Honing D2 or other hard steels

[jimcon11]

Hi folks,

About a year ago I came here out of frustration with my inability to get any knife sharp. You all helped me immensely. I picked up a Buck Honemaster for angle control, DMT blue coarse stone, and the Bark River black and green compounds. With just three steps (DMT blue > BR black > BR green) I've gotten every knife in my collection sharp enough to comfortably shave with.

I met my match last night, on a Queen Mountain Man with D2 blade. First off, the sabre grind on it is much more obtuse than the 30° inclusive angle the Honemaster provides, so it took hours to reprofile the edge and get full burrs. I probably should have tried a larger angle that didn't involve removing so much metal, or at least a coarser stone that would have done it faster. But I stubbornly used what I have. In my impatience, I got careless and ground off the very tip of the blade, as well as put a lot of needless scratches into the mirrored finish. Frustrating, but it will be used so not the end of the world.

Next came removing the burr, which I do using light leading edge passes on the DMT blue. This took many more sweeps than normal, and I really wasn't sure if the burr was fully gone. It felt like I was in danger of dulling the edge, so I moved on to the strops. Long story short, the Bark River compounds did not touch this steel. So now I have a weird looking polished blade with a rough 300 grit bevel that is not sharp to my liking. It will very roughly shave but that's about it. Furthermore, the curved part of the blade is noticeably duller than the rest, which makes no sense because I am definitely getting full-length burrs (Ive tried twice now). No idea what's going on there--I guess I must be grinding my edge when I lift the knife while trying to remove the burr...

Anyway, what would be the most cost effective way to further hone this D2 edge? I've heard of diamond stropping compounds, should I just try that in place of the Bark River stuff? Suggestions on products? I plan to get some modern knives with harder steels in the future so this might apply to more than just D2. All thoughts appreciated.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

For finishing D2 all the way through stropping & polishing, nothing works better than diamond on this steel. At coarse stages of heavy metal removal, SiC stones or SiC wet/dry sandpaper work pretty well, as well as diamond.

D2 is VERY stubborn at the polishing end of things though. Because D2's chromium carbides are SO BIG - up to 50 microns and sometimes bigger - other polishing media will struggle to evenly polish both the carbides and the supporting matrix steel, usually leaving edges rounded off at the apex if attempted with lesser abrasive compounds, and worse if they're used on a softish stropping media like leather. This is what makes it so hard to get a keen edge with a polished finish on D2. Not that it can't be done, though. That's where refinement on finer diamond hones (600-1200+) and stropping using diamond compound on a hard backing like wood will make a difference. I've liked using 3-micron DMT Dia-Paste compound on wood (like basswood or any other hardwood) for polishing bevels/edges on D2.

And Queen's thick-edged blades complicate matters further, requiring much more thinning of the edge to make the most of it. That's where a SiC stone (or sandpaper) can work pretty fast at hogging off metal. Something at 220/320-grit or lower can work pretty fast on D2. A strip of SiC wet/dry sandpaper at full-sheet length (11" - 12" or so) over a hard backing can work very aggressively for this, enabling some longer grinding passes used with some pressure. That's what I've used for thinning some of Queen's blades in D2.

 

[annr]

I ran out of gas sharpening a Queen in D2 for a friend, and I resorted to a Tormek.

 

[jimcon11]

For finishing D2 all the way through stropping & polishing, nothing works better than diamond on this steel. At coarse stages of heavy metal removal, SiC stones or SiC wet/dry sandpaper work pretty well, as well as diamond.

D2 is VERY stubborn at the polishing end of things though. Because D2's chromium carbides are SO BIG - up to 50 microns and sometimes bigger - other polishing media will struggle to evenly polish both the carbides and the supporting matrix steel, usually leaving edges rounded off at the apex if attempted with lesser abrasive compounds, and worse if they're used on a softish stropping media like leather. This is what makes it so hard to get a keen edge with a polished finish on D2. Not that it can't be done, though. That's where refinement on finer diamond hones (600-1200+) and stropping using diamond compound on a hard backing like wood will make a difference. I've liked using 3-micron DMT Dia-Paste compound on wood (like basswood or any other hardwood) for polishing bevels/edges on D2.

And Queen's thick-edged blades complicate matters further, requiring much more thinning of the edge to make the most of it. That's where a SiC stone (or sandpaper) can work pretty fast at hogging off metal. Something at 220/320-grit or lower can work pretty fast on D2. A strip of SiC wet/dry sandpaper at full-sheet length (11" - 12" or so) over a hard backing can work very aggressively for this, enabling some longer grinding passes used with some pressure. That's what I've used for thinning some of Queen's blades in D2.

Wow, really appreciate all the detail and science you shared. From some older threads I searched, it didn't sound like D2 required any special treatment, but from my experience and your input I'm learning a lot.

I totally agree about the edge on this thing... very thick. I've kind of wrecked my honemaster on the diamond stone in the process of cutting bevels. Do you set your bevels freehand with the sandpaper/SiC stone or use some kind of angle guide?

Your recommendation sounds pretty straightforward. Is stropping on wood done basically the same as on leather? I see there is a Dia-Paste kit in 6, 3,1 micron equating to 4k, 8k, and 15k "mesh". Will I be okay jumping straight from the DMT blue (300 grit) to the 6 or 3 micron paste, or should I be thinking of an intermediate sharpening step on a finer stone first?

Thanks so much for the help.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Wow, really appreciate all the detail and science you shared. From some older threads I searched, it didn't sound like D2 required any special treatment, but from my experience and your input I'm learning a lot.

I totally agree about the edge on this thing... very thick. I've kind of wrecked my honemaster on the diamond stone in the process of cutting bevels. Do you set your bevels freehand with the sandpaper/SiC stone or use some kind of angle guide?

Your recommendation sounds pretty straightforward. Is stropping on wood done basically the same as on leather? I see there is a Dia-Paste kit in 6, 3,1 micron equating to 4k, 8k, and 15k "mesh". Will I be okay jumping straight from the DMT blue (300 grit) to the 6 or 3 micron paste, or should I be thinking of an intermediate sharpening step on a finer stone first?

Thanks so much for the help.

I have a couple of Queen D2 knives that I thinned & convexed freehand. Those are the ones on which I used the SiC sandpaper (over glass or stone), using edge-trailing passes. I also have another Queen folder, a stockman, on which I set new bevels with my Lansky guided system some years ago. That was VERY slow on those small hones (4" long x 1/2" wide).

The two knives I convexed on SiC sandpaper were also polished using the DMT Dia-Paste (3 micron) on hardwood (I used basswood). I DID follow the shaping on sandpaper with edge refinement on a diamond hone (600), for the sake of keeping the apex as sharp & crisp as possible. In stropping on wood, the 3-micron paste brings a mirror polish very quickly, IF the blades are first finished up through at least 600 mesh (25 micron) and better if finished up through 1200 (9 micron). I'm referencing DMT's Fine and EF hones there. Stropping on wood is the same as with leather, in terms of basic technique. In some ways it's even easier because, on hardwood, you can use a little extra pressure against the bevels without too much risk of compression of the strop substrate underneath the blade (which rounds off edges on soft materials, like leather). And the wood, being firmer, will also make the compound work faster to a polish - MUCH faster, in fact.

For what it's worth, after thinning Queen's D2 blades to take a decent edge, a very good working edge can then be applied with something like a Coarse or Fine diamond hone (325 or 600) without taking the edge finish any further. One of the two Queen blades I convexed with sandpaper was essentially my first experiment in sharpening D2, also while trying out a new DMT diamond hone for the first time in the same exercise. The big takeaways for me there were (1) the SiC sandpaper removes metal on D2 blades very fast and (2) following that with sharpening on the DMT Fine left a viciously-sharp, toothy edge on the knife. I managed to slice into my thumb accidentally, while holding the hone in one hand and sharpening with the other. My bleeding thumb left me impressed with how well the method was working for me. A couple of good lessons learned in doing that.

 

[rhino]

My conclusion re: D2 and its clones like Bohler K110 is that it's not worth the effort it takes to get a tolerably sharp edge. I cringe when I see a knife I like at an attractive price point, but it's D2. Blech.

 

[jimcon11]

I have a couple of Queen D2 knives that I thinned & convexed freehand. Those are the ones on which I used the SiC sandpaper (over glass or stone), using edge-trailing passes. I also have another Queen folder, a stockman, on which I set new bevels with my Lansky guided system some years ago. That was VERY slow on those small hones (4" long x 1/2" wide).

The two knives I convexed on SiC sandpaper were also polished using the DMT Dia-Paste (3 micron) on hardwood (I used basswood). I DID follow the shaping on sandpaper with edge refinement on a diamond hone (600), for the sake of keeping the apex as sharp & crisp as possible. In stropping on wood, the 3-micron paste brings a mirror polish very quickly, IF the blades are first finished up through at least 600 mesh (25 micron) and better if finished up through 1200 (9 micron). I'm referencing DMT's Fine and EF hones there. Stropping on wood is the same as with leather, in terms of basic technique. In some ways it's even easier because, on hardwood, you can use a little extra pressure against the bevels without too much risk of compression of the strop substrate underneath the blade (which rounds off edges on soft materials, like leather). And the wood, being firmer, will also make the compound work faster to a polish - MUCH faster, in fact.

For what it's worth, after thinning Queen's D2 blades to take a decent edge, a very good working edge can then be applied with something like a Coarse or Fine diamond hone (325 or 600) without taking the edge finish any further. One of the two Queen blades I convexed with sandpaper was essentially my first experiment in sharpening D2, also while trying out a new DMT diamond hone for the first time in the same exercise. The big takeaways for me there were (1) the SiC sandpaper removes metal on D2 blades very fast and (2) following that with sharpening on the DMT Fine left a viciously-sharp, toothy edge on the knife. I managed to slice into my thumb accidentally, while holding the hone in one hand and sharpening with the other. My bleeding thumb left me impressed with how well the method was working for me. A couple of good lessons learned in doing that.

Sounds like maybe I would do best with a DMT EF stone and then the 3 micron paste. The EF stone will also help me preserve my blades a bit more versus using the coarse every time. Thank you again for the wisdom here.

For now I will be content with the best edge I can get off the coarse (325) stone. My measure of sharpness is always shaving for some reason, and I'm not sure it's possible to shave comfortably with a 325 mesh edge, but this Queen MM did feel very sharp and toothy after my efforts to remove the burr. Then, as you predicted, felt noticeably less sharp after stropping on leather with the black and green compound.

With the F or EF stone and diamond compound wood strop, do you still take a special step in removing the burr, i.e. very light leading edge strokes at a slightly higher angle than the bevels to 'knock' it off? This has always been the most vague part of the process for me, with seemingly great risk of error. What should my technique be here if I am simply finishing on the coarse stone in order to get the best edge possible?

My conclusion re: D2 and its clones like Bohler K110 is that it's not worth the effort it takes to get a tolerably sharp edge. I cringe when I see a knife I like at an attractive price point, but it's D2. Blech.

Well, live and learn for me. D2 sounded cool and I love this pattern of knife otherwise. I am hoping it will at least hold the edge for a really long time once I get it

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Sounds like maybe I would do best with a DMT EF stone and then the 3 micron paste. The EF stone will also help me preserve my blades a bit more versus using the coarse every time. Thank you again for the wisdom here.

For now I will be content with the best edge I can get off the coarse (325) stone. My measure of sharpness is always shaving for some reason, and I'm not sure it's possible to shave comfortably with a 325 mesh edge, but this Queen MM did feel very sharp and toothy after my efforts to remove the burr. Then, as you predicted, felt noticeably less sharp after stropping on leather with the black and green compound.

With the F or EF stone and diamond compound wood strop, do you still take a special step in removing the burr, i.e. very light leading edge strokes at a slightly higher angle than the bevels to 'knock' it off? This has always been the most vague part of the process for me, with seemingly great risk of error. What should my technique be here if I am simply finishing on the coarse stone in order to get the best edge possible?





Well, live and learn for me. D2 sounded cool and I love this pattern of knife otherwise. I am hoping it will at least hold the edge for a really long time once I get it

Part of the reason I like and use the DMT diamond hones is, they're better at cleanly cutting most any steel with a minimum of burring issues left over. This is, of course, dependant upon using them with a very light touch in finishing stages. Any hard-plated hone can generate some heavy burrs if pressure is too heavy, because the blade edge bottoms out against the plated nickel surface of the hone and the steel can't be cut there - so it just rolls over. But I've noticed over time, comparing to other brands of diamond hones I've tried, the DMTs always leave a cleaner edge when used with a light touch. And at least with Queen's blades in D2, I don't recall seeing much of an issue with very stubborn burrs anyway. So, for any deburring needing done, do it as you would normally do, at a slightly elevated angle and with a very, very light touch. The goal being to gently abrade it away, leaving a still thinner apex, and less about breaking it off.

I usually associate heavier burring issues with stones or other abrasives that struggle to cut the steel cleanly. If the abrasive can't cut it cleanly, then burrs tend to deflect away from stone more, instead of being cleanly removed at a light touch. I ALWAYS see more burring issues on very cheap stones, for example - especially very cheap aluminum oxide stones or natural stones that aren't hard enough, relative to the steel or its carbides, to cut the steel effectively.

If you prefer to finish on the coarse DMT, then the main strategy is just maintaining the lightest touch possible. You can still thin the apex and refine it a little more, if your touch gets progressively lighter in finishing. With diamond hones and any others, the lightest touch is something I equate to just brushing dust from the surface of the hone, using the edge of the blade. Literally that light - nothing heavier.

 

[Greggy]

Re D2. I have five knives in D2. After trying and trying, I now sharpen on a 1000 grit JIS whetstone and call it a day. Higher grits do nothing of worth. I limit myself to aluminum oxide stones and am not interested in buying diamond stones. I can cut paper but definitely not shaving sharp. Toothy edges and that's it. Good enough for me.

 

[jimcon11]

Part of the reason I like and use the DMT diamond hones is, they're better at cleanly cutting most any steel with a minimum of burring issues left over. This is, of course, dependant upon using them with a very light touch in finishing stages. Any hard-plated hone can generate some heavy burrs if pressure is too heavy, because the blade edge bottoms out against the plated nickel surface of the hone and the steel can't be cut there - so it just rolls over. But I've noticed over time, comparing to other brands of diamond hones I've tried, the DMTs always leave a cleaner edge when used with a light touch. And at least with Queen's blades in D2, I don't recall seeing much of an issue with very stubborn burrs anyway. So, for any deburring needing done, do it as you would normally do, at a slightly elevated angle and with a very, very light touch. The goal being to gently abrade it away, leaving a still thinner apex, and less about breaking it off.

I usually associate heavier burring issues with stones or other abrasives that struggle to cut the steel cleanly. If the abrasive can't cut it cleanly, then burrs tend to deflect away from stone more, instead of being cleanly removed at a light touch. I ALWAYS see more burring issues on very cheap stones, for example - especially very cheap aluminum oxide stones or natural stones that aren't hard enough, relative to the steel or its carbides, to cut the steel effectively.

If you prefer to finish on the coarse DMT, then the main strategy is just maintaining the lightest touch possible. You can still thin the apex and refine it a little more, if your touch gets progressively lighter in finishing. With diamond hones and any others, the lightest touch is something I equate to just brushing dust from the surface of the hone, using the edge of the blade. Literally that light - nothing heavier.

Thanks again for the advice. After 3 tries, I am just not getting this knife quite as sharp on the 325 stone as I feel like it should be. It just barely shaves hair and cuts paper ok but won't really push cut. I did slice my thumb while testing the edge... so it's certainly useful (felt exactly like a papercut at this low refinement.. ouch!).

I am definitely apexing both sides fully until I can plainly see and feel a big burr, so either I'm not getting the burr all the way off or I'm being a bit too aggressive and dulling the edge while trying to deburr... not sure which. I may just hold off and be satisfied until I get the finer diamond materials.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thanks again for the advice. After 3 tries, I am just not getting this knife quite as sharp on the 325 stone as I feel like it should be. It just barely shaves hair and cuts paper ok but won't really push cut. I did slice my thumb while testing the edge... so it's certainly useful (felt exactly like a papercut at this low refinement.. ouch!).

I am definitely apexing both sides fully until I can plainly see and feel a big burr, so either I'm not getting the burr all the way off or I'm being a bit too aggressive and dulling the edge while trying to deburr... not sure which. I may just hold off and be satisfied until I get the finer diamond materials.

Push-cutting and shaving tests get easier with narrower edge geometry and also with a finer finish trending toward polished. Once you go below 30° inclusive, and especially down around 25° inclusive or lower, big improvements come in push-cutting and shaving. 325-mesh isn't the best for a shaving edge - not comfortably, anyway - but narrowing the edge geometry makes it easier to achieve at coarser grit. I also tend to believe burr removal gets easier at lower edge angles too. It's easier to stabilize angle control at a lower held angle (in my experience, anyway), so edges tend not to get as rounded off on strops or stones, as can easily happen when trying to hold steady at a higher angle.

 

[GPyro]

Thanks!
I've struggled with d2 myself.
I like the way it performs but haven't really mastered sharpening it.

 

[jimcon11]

Push-cutting and shaving tests get easier with narrower edge geometry and also with a finer finish trending toward polished. Once you go below 30° inclusive, and especially down around 25° inclusive or lower, big improvements come in push-cutting and shaving. 325-mesh isn't the best for a shaving edge - not comfortably, anyway - but narrowing the edge geometry makes it easier to achieve at coarser grit. I also tend to believe burr removal gets easier at lower edge angles too. It's easier to stabilize angle control at a lower held angle (in my experience, anyway), so edges tend not to get as rounded off on strops or stones, as can easily happen when trying to hold steady at a higher angle.

Hmm yeah, I didn't consider my angle. I have a Buck 110 that came from the factory with a super coarse edge that also shaves really easily... and now I see that it's because the edge geometry is ridiculously thin. Good for a skinning knife I suppose. I think 30° inclusive is already as thin as I want to go on this mountain man, so I'll just be content for now.

There really are a lot of things to consider and you certainly live up to your username

 

[Alberta Ed]

Diamond works best on D2. I get the best results first setting the bevel on a DMT Extra Coarse 220 grit, then finishing with a few light strokes on a DMT ultra fine. Works for S110V, too.