Honk Falls and Rondout

Codger_64

Codger_64

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These two cutleries are giving me fits. Where are they hiding? I know that there is online info on them somewhere. I can't even find good examples to look at. I have founf a few Napanochs though, and a bit of info on that company. Dang if that one wouldn't make a good movie! Henry Fonda, where are you?

Codger
 
Try looking under Grahamsville knife not Roundout. They were only in business one year. Goins has a post card in his book and a question mark on how long they were in business. His is unused I have that one postmarked I also have one showing it burnt down. Both from the same person in Grahamsville to the same person in NJ. One card says something to the effect of Hey look at the new knife company, the other Hey look the knife factory burnt down. It is the only verified information showing exact time when it was around and how it looked before and after. I also have a couple of the knives. It is in a very special display since I may want to write about it some time in the future. The roundout is a large water shed for NYC. Grahamsville was partially flooded when it was built. Grahamsville has received special tax considerations ever since this took place.

Honk falls is near Napanoch ( it is also on the Roundout, it also was a power station ). and this company took over as the local knife company when Napanoch was sold to Winchester. I have a couple of them as well. You will find info in Levine 4 on this whole scenario. So there is no sense in my expounding and taking any fun away from looking it up.

This may help put you in the right direction for your research. LT PS Henry Fonda like Mr Goins, Honk falls knives, Grahamsville knife,and Schrade in the USA are all dead. So if Mr Fonda replies to you you might want to worry bit.
 
LT, I speak to the dead often, and John Cushner has a heck of a tale to tell. Amazing. Talk about sticking with it! His wife Anne and he passed it on to their daughters Rita, Helen, and Esther as well. Now while they, and the knife companies, may well be dead, the legacy they left is not. It only needs to be told and remembered. And as you are well aware, it is hard to tell just the story of one individual person or cutlery because they were in one way or another all tied together in a continuous string that begins before the Revolution and at the moment rests in an old factory on Canal Street and in Stamford, and all throughout New England. And in Texas, Arkansas, Arizona, Oregon, and all points inbetween. Nope. It is definately not over. Things are just shifting is all. And the spirit that drove the Mirandos, the Paolantonios, the Schrades, Cushners, Devines, and Baers is still powering this country.
(insert flags and Sousa marches at this point)

Codger
 
I see by your reference to the Cushner family you may have accessed the Napanoch knife book written by Stidham which I suggested that you use to further your study of Napanoch. Once again I would like to mention it as a reference for those who might want to review this information and I also want to give credit this particular source. The name of the book is Napanoch " A white Man's " Knife with A Red Man's " Name. This is a great source for this information.

Yes I am fairly aware of the history you mention. I also have been known to wave a flag or two. However my years of attempting to bring a museum into existence have shown me that it is a difficult task. Having brought a bill into the NYS legislature. Having lectured and exhibited my collection as well as having written a bit on the subject. I believe I have the right to offer that as an educated opinion.

While as long as anyone still persues this matter I feel that it is not dead. However I do not feel this history and the people that lived it are being recognized or remembered. As far as it shifting, that I feel is just a nice way to circumvent the fact with pleasant rhetoric that more and more companies are being forced into going the communist chinese route the few companies left are struggling and ( with only a few exceptions ) continue to falter. This continues to happen from sea to shining sea and it is our past blind eye that has helped it happen, to simply say that this spirit is powering the country is I believe is somewhat prepossessing.

I noticed that you did not address the information I offered regarding your original question please let me know if that helps.

Having worked in Mattewan for the cirmminally insane I have found that talking to the dead is OK it is only when you start getting answers and responding to there demands that it may be considered detrimental.

I am attaching some pictures of my porch ornament which after 2 years has been finally put in place. When I open my front door it is right in front of me. I was going to make it a hood ornament but it was a tad to heavy ( even for my old Lincoln.) I call it the Oracle and I talk to it. I asked it about the recent script Imperial tang stamp question. It seemed to say that it had never seen that steel and was possibly after its time or perhapes foreign ( as I suggested ) Imperial was a name used on many Japanese products.

The Oracle is a living piece of this history not simply a phrase copied out of a reference or quoted statistic. Still even an item like this cannot find its way to a permanent public spot to be shown. Several people have remarked after seeing it that I sure was lucky to have found it. Well first I did not find it I paid for it as everything else I got from the Schrade closing ( out of pocket ). Also as with many items it was just being left to go to the dump. I also made sure that no one else wanted it I checked with Schrade execs the auction company ect. In fact is it had been sold along with the rest of the front lobby items ( furniture bulletin boards ect ) at auction in one lot. The mover left it ( to heavy ) I do not believe the buyer of the furniture even knew it was there or cared. So after 10 hours of rooting through in some cases 80 years of dirt myself and another old tired warhorse. we were allowed access to the front lobby and got permission to take it, it is so heavy that it could only be shoved on inch at a time on my belly while in fatigues along the floor ( ah it brought back memorys ) We got it out to my tag along which was already overloaded and some how got it in. My old truck ( which now has gone to its reward. with bad tires rusted and with 200 thousand miles on it had to haul its load and the trailer over a very impressive mountain ( RT 52 ). My friend who I have known for around fifty years told me I was crazy to attempt it he said two old men in a broken down old truck should not be doing this on a cold November night by themselves I told him that he was right on both counts but that on this night one of two things would happen one would be that I would get it out loaded and home the other that I would die trying. Opportunity is important but it is nothing without tenacity and determination.

I will not go in to building the housing, ect for which I paid dearly in beer and steaks to a couple of out of work ( it was winter ) carpenters that I know. So there it sits I consider this to be the real spirit of saving this history. As with the Grahamville documentation I mentioned, I was lucky again and the collection I have amassed and had offered to loan to a permanent museum. It is not luck, it is the real spirit of searching and saving this history.

I have been asked hey that is pretty neat what is it worth I used to say it is not for sale now after 50 plus years of beating my head agasinst the wall I say whatever I can get at least a collector will get the pieces to save instead of it being sold for 10 cents on the dollar when I croak. Say hello to the Oracle. The original stone used by Felix Mirando in the 20tys. it has been saved from demise ( at least for now ). If you really want to understand the message and what is going on in the memory and story of all these great old cutlers that you mention perhapes you might consider the plight of this stone and use its history as to just how sad all of this is. You might want to call it the Mirando stone warning. LT
 
Thankyou I appreciate you saying that. I had checked with everyone including Dave and Wally and the auction company seems nobody wanted the puppy. LT
 
No sir, so far Stidham's book has eluded me. I'm afraid that someone with deeper pockets than I wants it also. All I have seen of it is the listing on eBay and the pictures you posted of your copy. I found my information in old census records, obituaries, newspapers, and local historian accounts. And in other government records that still exist. I am sure you are aware of these resources, and perhaps, having lived all your life around the environs of these cutlerys, might even have known the school teacher from Rondout Valley School at Kerhonkson, Ms. Rita Cushner, last surviving daughter of John Cushner. Hopefully, you were able to hear her recite her memories of her father's cutlery businesses, and saw some of her family keepsakes. If not, then maybe her niece Virgina still has them.

The fact that these people's names and accomplishments are today being mentioned here, accessable to any interested party in the world, is proof that they are not forgotten, and remembered only in a musty booklet resting on someone's bookshelf. Like the artifacts of history, we are only temporary custodians of the words of history as well.

The shift of the U.S. cutlery market is not merely a touchy-feely nice way of restating facts, it is a fact. Canal Street at your own front door is proof of this. As are thousands of small cutlerys across America. I see it more as history coming full circle, with low priced goods flooding the market from abroad. Whether another McKinley will appear with protectionist tarrifs to give relief to our industries, I have no idea. Regardless, the spirit of entrepreneurship that we laud as history will prevail in the long run. Walter Gardiner, Les D'aisis, and many more are living proof. THEY are the ones assuring that America's cutlery heritage continues, as much if not more than a frame of discontinued knives on my wall.

I've not yet found anything useful following the track "Grahamsville", but it took me well over a year to track down basic biographical information on the Baer brothers, much more recent information, so I am not surprised or disheartened with the first search for Grahamsville. Not being able to go to local courthouses and dig through old files firsthand is definately a handicap in my search, but not insurmountable. As I am sure you know, many people who have the materials and knowledge are not willing to freely provide them, so that makes it harder than it has to be.

Neat story of the stone. And a really nice case for it too. Michael and Felix would be proud. Or maybe they would be asking of the whereabouts of all the other artifacts that have been scattered over the years. There is not much telling what was lost when the Imperial building was abandoned in Providence.

Thanks for the information and pointers.

Codger
 
You might want to contact Rhett I believe he still has copies and he is interested in history. Feel free to mention my name ( that should kill your chances ) . Rhett Has a store near smokey and is the head of the Randall society. I am sure your expertise with the computer will find him quickly. Rhett was a friend of the Cushners and ended up with most of everything that was there.

As I stated nothing is dead as long as someone remembers it. As I also said there are a few exceptions to the commy rule of thumb that the commys rule the market. Les is contemplating doing some commy stuff and is being forced into it, the same as everyone else by economics. His main ability to fend this off in the past has been his government contracts for knives now especially with the Iraq situation. These contracts are quite large. Canal is a handful of cutlers attempting to keep this memory alive but hardly constitutes a viable market challenge. So I do not for these reasons feel that these examples are making much of a difference in turning this market around. The rather expansive and comfortable statment of "and many more are living proof " would need to be cooborated before I could accept these mystery companies. What I do see is Taylor and Buck and even some of the few american companies who remain turning more and more to these foreign parts and tools. That unfortunately is what seems to be factual. I believe you know how I feel about this but none the less it seems true. This country has never supported tariffs for any length of time that is why Mckinley as a congressman supported ( and was insturmental in the passage of knife tariff legislation) he hooked up with Bradley during the civil war when they were both Aides de Camp. Bradley getting the position as a reward for being a hero at Chancelorville Mckinley by being politically hooked up. They both knew that tariffs would not last long as history in this country has shown. That is when Bradley suddenly amazingly found 250 thousand dollars came back from the war and unlike all his contemporarys who were going bankrupt started hiring and went into full production. Do you think he might have had inside info on the passage of the tariff laws? When Mckinley ran for president he completely reversed his position on tariffs ( since he knew he could not be elected with a tariff policy ). That by the way is when amazingly Bradley sold NYK. ( I wonder why ). Americans will buy from anyone who will sell cheapest, history has shown this and they do not care if it there worst enemy. That is exactly what is going on now. Until Americans are willing to work for 6 cents an hour or use unpaid prison labor we will never produce products for what the communist chinese can. That is the stinking facts.

I love this country more than family more than life. I often wish that I could have died honorably for it as so many of my friends did. I do not know why I am here and they are not ( for they were certainly more worthy than myself) but I do know that no amount of patriotic music or platitudes on a mystical cure to preserve the American way is going to be enough to turn this around. My desire to preserve these artifacts and the history of these people is really the lesson of history itself for if we do not remember it and the sacrifices this history represents. We shall certainly have to relearn these lesson again and pay these prices again. ( " Those who forget the mistakes of history are bound to relive them ").

I support your research and the fact that over the last couple of years have truly taken the subject to heart. I disagree with some of your conclusions. Still the good you do by keeping the subject alive and in the public eye is wonderful keep up the good work and good luck on any futher projects. LT
 
A note about the Mirando stone.
I was in awe when I saw it in its un preserved state and it truly does have an glow about it. Although a cold stone it felt warm to me. It really stood out amoungst the thousands of boxes of other recovered items. I think you were still recovering from the effort it took to move it.
Nice glass enclosure. Did you build it?
I have a couple of pictures of it on the LT corner on the web page and a couple of my own from the visit.

TTYL
Larry
 
Thank you again for the lead LT. I e-mailed Mr. Stidham. I'll see if he has interest in helping, and to what extent. The copy of "A white Man's " Knife with A Red Man's Name" went for $70.32 , but then it had the $15 Holley manufacturing book with it.

While it might seem that the importation of knives and knife parts from the orient is a recent thing, it certainly is not. Even Schrade did so many years ago, as a look at their flatware and kitchen knives shows. And their debt outstanding to Ray International and Orange Imports. Good, bad, or indifferent, it is undeniable truth with no room for conjecture. No doubt, they sourced in Europe (owned a part of the company in Theirs France, Ireland, England, and Germany) in addition to the Listowel factory, as long as exchange rates made it economically profitable to do so. You are correct though, we are not likely to see protective tarrifs in the near future. Or a "Chrysler-AmTrack-Airlines" style bailout for the cutlery industry. Afterall, knives have become non-PC, just like you and I. Choices of American made guns have narrowed drastically in the past few years, and I challenge anyone to buy a new American brand truck or car with 100% American sourced parts and assembly.

I appreciate you support of my efforts more than you know. And given MPV's statement recently as to why they chose not to do a Schrade book, I have all the more reason to dig deeper and write more. Profits? We don' need no steenkin profits!
Codger

BTW, these stones speak to us from all across the country. I have one in my own back yard that dated to the late unpleasantness between the states, and here is one in front of the Holley Knife factory (1844) in Lakeville, CT.
 
We are lucky men, my son and I. We live in the town of Wawarsing which includes the village of Ellenville. We had the pleasure of seeing the dispaly LT put on at the museum in Ellenville and that was only the beginning.
LT was gracious enough to invite us to see his collection in person without even knowing us.
We were fortunate to see the Mirando stone as well as the priceless other schrade knives and history up close and personal.
When we came home that night, my son said "Dad I want to put this knife LT gave me in my nightstand drawer. I don't want to get it mixed up with the rest of the knives because it is special". I have a feeling it will only move out of that drawer when he moves out.
We will always be thankful LT for the hours of sharing his knowledge with us.
I do have one question for you LT. How did you move that onto the porch???????????????? However you did it, it looks great.
Dennis
 
Remember the guy from Florida who when his girl friend jilted him he built a stone castle with giant stones that no one else could figure out how he did it or moved them. It was like he had the secret of anti gravity. When asked since no one ever saw him do it he replied eigmaticaly that it was easy when you knew how. I guess as I said before it usually boils down to determination. if no one tells you something is impossible or if they do and you do not believe them nothing is impossible. It was however interesting.

Stones themselves are not to difficult to find. In fact for anyone looking for a genuine stone from the NYK company I will tell you how to get your very own. You must wait until the end of summer on a drought year and decend into the Wallkill chasm ( be careful ) then you make your way up river to the falls. The ruins of NYK will be on your left you might as well take a few of the original bricks since you are there. A metal detector also may turn some interesting artifacts. A fishing rod is also a good Idea for the pools in the rocks below the dam ( small mouths to 3 lbs even bigger ). Then just start looking around you see in those days when they were done with a stone they often just threw it out a window into the river. It also was where human waste went as well and even when the river was high and employees were a bit under the influence some of them on a dare were said to have used the window route as well. Now that you have your stone, bricks, fish and perhapes some old webbing ( what was left after knives were punched out of the steel) ( kind of like what is left when you cut cookies out of dough ). As well as any other metal all you have to do is carry them up the sheer sides of the chasm. On my 55th birthday I made this pilgrimage with 2 other guys. One was my old buddie John ( same guy as the Mirando stone deal) yep I dragged him into this endeaver also. There are several ways to get back out and up the chasm, a jeep with a winch works fairly good. or even a rope tied to a tree on top helps. However in 100 degree heat and hot sweaty fatigues I made a bet that I could get one of the stones to the top with out any help. I was married then and happy so I weighed 350 lbs. It was pretty funny to watch but again not impossible. I have several of these regular stones around however I believe most will agree the Mirando stone with original machine restored is a bit more than a circular rock with a hole in it. Like I said though if you want an original bit of NY knife history all it takes is some determination ( and a dry year ).

When the water is running high it was this power that originally made these knives and in fact there is a small power station on the other side of the river. So don't try it then although I guess it is not impossible. LT PS Thankyou Dennis it was a pleasure meeting you and your son. You can be very proud. I will be stopping by. Have something warm and full of whiskey waiting either a bottle or a woman. Or both.
 
Codger_64 said:
Thank you again for the lead LT. I e-mailed Mr. Stidham. I'll see if he has interest in helping, and to what extent. The copy of "A white Man's " Knife with A Red Man's Name" went for $70.32 , but then it had the $15 Holley manufacturing book with it.

While it might seem that the importation of knives and knife parts from the orient is a recent thing, it certainly is not. Even Schrade did so many years ago, as a look at their flatware and kitchen knives shows. And their debt outstanding to Ray International and Orange Imports. Good, bad, or indifferent, it is undeniable truth with no room for conjecture. No doubt, they sourced in Europe (owned a part of the company in Theirs France, Ireland, England, and Germany) in addition to the Listowel factory, as long as exchange rates made it economically profitable to do so. You are correct though, we are not likely to see protective tarrifs in the near future. Or a "Chrysler-AmTrack-Airlines" style bailout for the cutlery industry. Afterall, knives have become non-PC, just like you and I. Choices of American made guns have narrowed drastically in the past few years, and I challenge anyone to buy a new American brand truck or car with 100% American sourced parts and assembly.

I appreciate you support of my efforts more than you know. And given MPV's statement recently as to why they chose not to do a Schrade book, I have all the more reason to dig deeper and write more. Profits? We don' need no steenkin profits!
Codger

BTW, these stones speak to us from all across the country. I have one in my own back yard that dated to the late unpleasantness between the states, and here is one in front of the Holley Knife factory (1844) in Lakeville, CT.
Click to expand...

Those books were my listing, and i was shocked at how high they went....i paid about 20 bucks for the Napanoch book on Ebay, so keep looking.
 
I congratulate you on the sale. I've contacted Mr. Stidham directly to see if he has any copies for sale. Several of the old cutlery catalogs are in reprint, none equal to Mr. Russell's book, IMHO. Let me know if you have others reference books you would like to sell to an impoverished researcher. :D

Maybe I could hire Dennis' son to descend the falls and recover a NYKC stone for me. How much is freight on a 150# rock from NY State to near Nashville, anyway?

Codger

(Yes folks, a combined rock and book grovel...you saw it here first!!!)
 
lt632ret said:
....Honk falls is near Napanoch ( it is also on the Roundout, it also was a power station )....
Click to expand...


Massacre at Fantinekill
A young negro, known as Robert, lived at Widow Isaac Bevier `s. He heard an unusual tramping around the house, just at the dawn of day, like that of horses. He got up and listened, and found that the noise was made by Indians.
He opened the door, and stepping back for a little start, jumped out and ran. In his flight he received a wound on his head from a tomahawk, and a ball was fired through the elbow of his roundabout, but did not hurt him. The Indians sang out in their own tongues, “Run, you black! run, you black!” It does not appear that he was pursued by them. He made his escape over the lowland to Napanock, stopping by the way at a stack to staunch the blood that was flowing profusely from his wound. The Indians immediately commenced the attack; the widow's sons were both killed, the house was set on fire, and the women driven into the cellar. The daughter Magdalene took the Dutch family Bible with her. When the flames reached them there, they choose rather to deliver themselves up to the savages than to suffer a horrible death by fire. They made their way through the cellar window, the mother in advance. The Indians were ready to receive their unfortunate and unoffending victims. What tongue can describe the feelings of mother and daughter at that moment? Sentence was immediately pronounced against the mother-death by the ruthless tomahawk-whilst the daughter was detained as a prisoner. It is said that a young Indian brave took a sudden fancy for her, and interposed in her behalf. The afflicted girl, as soon as she knew the decision of their captors, threw an apron over her head so as not to see her mother killed! All this while she had retained the Dutch Bible in her arms; this was now wrested from her and stamped in the mud.
When the Indians left the place they took her a short distance into the woods, and sent her back with a war-club, and a letter written by the Tories to Capt. Andrew Bevier, at Napanoek. In the letter the Tories invited the old Captain to dine with them next day at Lackawack. There was an allusion in it to the club-that so they meant to serve him. This club was stained with fresh blood, and adhering to it were some locks of human hair. On the girl's return she recovered her invaluable treasure--her Dutch Bible; some of the leaves were soiled by the mud, but not materially. It is still preserved as a precious relic in the family of her relatives.
http://www.usgennet.org/usa/ny/county/orange/legends/id74.htm



Yep. Fascinating history there.
 
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