Horrifying sight

Joined
Oct 6, 2013
Messages
59
I had several pocket knives in a knife roll in my desk. I haven't looked at them in years.
This evening I decided to take a peek to refresh my memory of what I had. When I unrolled it, what I saw sickened me. Several of my vintage Fight'n Roosters and a Winchester were quite rusted and the celluloid were messed up (looked rusted).
I guess there's nothing to do at this point but to say "lesson learned. 😩
 
Celluloid outgassing? That really blows. ☹️
Have you removed the bad celluloid to stop further damage?

Will you have them recovered with a natural material like bone, stag, and wood, or one of the modern synthetic materials like acrilic?
I've seen some acrylics that look like the old multi colored celluloid.
 
I just noticed it tonight. I don't know what I'm going to do next. I have some CLP on one right now.
 
Been there. I won't own another celluloid knife. Too hard to watch them slowly die, and contaminate everything else. I'm even gunshy of acrylic and delrin and micarta, even though I know they are safe.
 
I'm afraid those Frank Buster Fightin' Roosters are famous for cel rot. I have one I finally bought because the guy was leaving it in a bowl with other knives to be destroyed by it. I try not to buy project knives because I never get around to them.
 
That blows. I am sorry for your loss.
As others have said, the Frank Buster knives are famous for it and I have also seen it a lot on the Winchesters ( Blue Grass Cutlery). You can see this when searching the auction site with blades showing ecthing and pitting and the shields / pins looking dark / corroded. Unfortunately there are sellers that "Clean them up" with a polishing wheels etc trying to hide the deterioration but it's there if you look closely.
 
You've even got to be careful with materials being used on today's knives. One such is POM and called Cracked Ice by some manufactures. Here's a little tid-bit on POM.

"Polyoxymethylene (POM), also known as acetal,[2] polyacetal, and polyformaldehyde, is an engineering thermoplastic used in precision parts requiring high stiffness, low friction, and excellent dimensional stability. As with many other synthetic polymers, it is produced by different chemical firms with slightly different formulas and sold variously by such names as Delrin, Celcon, Ramtal, Duracon, Kepital, and Hostaform.

POM is characterized by its high strength, hardness and rigidity to −40 °C. POM is intrinsically opaque white, due to its high crystalline composition, but it is available in all colors. POM has a density of 1.410–1.420 g/cm3.[3]

Typical applications for injection-molded POM include high-performance engineering components such as small gear wheels, eyeglass frames, ball bearings, ski bindings, fasteners, guns, knife handles, and lock systems. The material is widely used in the automotive and consumer electronics industry.

DEGRADATION: Acetal resins are sensitive to acid hydrolysis and oxidation by agents such as mineral acids and chlorine. POM homopolymer is also susceptible to alkaline attack and is more susceptible to degradation in hot water. Thus low levels of chlorine in potable water supplies (1–3 ppm) can be sufficient to cause environmental stress cracking, a problem experienced in both the USA and Europe in domestic and commercial water supply systems. Defective mouldings are most sensitive to cracking, but normal mouldings can succumb if the water is hot. Both POM homopolymer and copolymer are stabilized to mitigate these types of degradation.

In addition, POM can have undesirable characteristics when burned. The flame is not self-extinguishing, shows little to no smoke, and the blue flame can be almost invisible in ambient light. Burning also releases formaldehyde gas, which irritates nose, throat, and eye tissues."
 
Burning also releases formaldehyde gas, which irritates nose, throat, and eye tissues.
Yes... it does. We used to make parts through injection molding using delrin. If the machine sat too long, and the material in the machine barrel overheated to a degraded condition, we could clear out the building by purging the degraded material out of the barrel. It was much like tear gas...

I don't know if that can cause issues with knife handles.... I've never heard of it, but I suppose anything is possible.
Don't go for the "burnt jigged delrin" look on your knife..... just sayin.... :cool:
 
We had many factory mint Prestos and Remington contract knives destroyed. They were put up in rolls when the factory closed in 1958 and stored in an attic for 30 years before it was discovered. Fortunately they were stored together and not with all others.
 
I’m not sure of how the knife roll is constructed. I purchased it from SMKW many years ago and it was the best one they sold at that time, FWIW.
 
We had many factory mint Prestos and Remington contract knives destroyed.
Ouch.

I really appreciate what Fight'n Rooster did; running short numbers of hard to find patterns and materials back in the 70's & 80's, much like GEC does these days. The tortoise celluloid they used was in a class by itself.
 
Here’s some pictures of the knives in question. First, the Winchester followed by the Fight’n Rooster with the celluloid scales, another Fight’n Rooster with scales that I’m not sure of the material, and another Fight'n Rooster that's approximately the same age as the others that is beginning to show cell rot.
I also showed where the one (butter and molasses?) Fight'n Rooster sat in my case.619AD02A-1F5C-489C-AF06-62F9D57B134A_1_105_c.jpg7D2D8626-09D8-49B5-B082-8D714D28E954_1_105_c.jpg3B1D36D7-A976-4881-9B9A-A303BBEED0B9_1_105_c.jpg5FD50398-FC15-4518-BDB3-F73E9E2EE8FB_1_105_c.jpg91844B4B-6773-4283-BC4A-A17EE21B4027_1_105_c.jpg1E149322-6962-46FE-BEA4-B4DC52B2C76A_1_105_c.jpg19293FE3-C2AD-48AA-8184-6230B496643A_1_105_c.jpg08FAC977-0F0C-4C76-86CF-7922BD838DE8_1_105_c.jpg
 
For "normal" temperatures, Delrin is quite stable. It's a popular material for making woodwind instruments, particularly ones traditionally made of African blackwood.

Does anyone know the effects of camphor fumes on various scale materials besides wood? I'm a fan of keeping a block of camphor in a toolbox to ward off rust.
 
Here’s some pictures of the knives in question. First, the Winchester followed by the Fight’n Rooster with the celluloid scales, another Fight’n Rooster with scales that I’m not sure of the material, and another Fight'n Rooster that's approximately the same age as the others that is beginning to show cell rot.
I also showed where the one (butter and molasses?) Fight'n Rooster sat in my case.View attachment 1725212View attachment 1725213View attachment 1725214View attachment 1725218View attachment 1725222View attachment 1725225View attachment 1725228View attachment 1725229
Wow, when it happens it happens big time eh! Feel for you.
After seeing that I'd be a fool if I didnt only store natural material handles together.
 
Catastrophic and Cell can make for very beautiful knives . The mess! Perhaps another aspect is that it's extremely inflammable material too. I have one example and it's 'sectioned' in a wool slip in its own box/coffin.
 
For "normal" temperatures, Delrin is quite stable. It's a popular material for making woodwind instruments, particularly ones traditionally made of African blackwood.

Does anyone know the effects of camphor fumes on various scale materials besides wood? I'm a fan of keeping a block of camphor in a toolbox to ward off rust.
It's not the camphor fumes that cause corrosion; it's the nitric acid vapor released when the camphor sublimates out of the celluloid. Camphor is the stabilizer in celluloid.
 
It's not the camphor fumes that cause corrosion; it's the nitric acid vapor released when the camphor sublimates out of the celluloid. Camphor is the stabilizer in celluloid.
The idea is that camphor fumes condense on steel and provide a barrier against corrosion, which is why it's popular to keep a tablet in toolboxes. I was wondering if said fumes would cause problems with scale materials that don't ordinarily have it in their composition. I'm pretty sure it doesn't affect Delrin and it sure doesn't affect wood, but I'm not sure about acrylic, micarta, bone, or hard rubber.
 
Camphor blocks help guard against moisture induced rust, but won't stop the corrosion caused by celluloid deterioration. Camphor won't adversely affect any common scale material that I can think of, other than making it smell like camphor.

Some of the celluloid threads I've read makes me think there might be a little misunderstanding about celluloid these days. When the celluloid runs away, it doesn't just ruin the celluloid scales, the fumes given off in the process causes pitting of all the metal parts close by. I had a celluloid knife run away, and it damaged everything in the drawer it was in. It happened remarkably quickly, and the collateral damage was remarkable. Even stainless blades suffered damage.

There are any number of authorities who will tell you how to preserve celluloid. The bottom line is this: celluloid is an unstable material from a chemical standpoint. Heat and light, especially sunlight, will cause celluloid to deteriorate. But that doesn't mean that storage in the proverbial cool dry place will preserve celluloid indefinitely. Its inherent instability makes the stuff an adventure. It might last a hundred years, it might last twenty.

Best thing to do is if you have celluloid, keep them apart from each other, and keep them away from other things of value.
 
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