horror stories

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MBC77

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I've heard horror stories about people getting charged with possession of a switchblade for having a loose knife that can be flicked open. like a gravity knife. but have any of you ever heard anything on the WAVE feature yet? it would be interesting if a :jerkit: leo asked you to put it on the hood of your car and you didn't hold the blade and it SNAPPED open:eek: . Could it be a considered gravity knife?Also what about modifying your knife like how spyderco people sometimes put zip ties on the spyderhole?Anyone heard anything?
 
A good but complex question . There are a lot of LEO's out there , plus a lot of laws . I reversed the clip on my delica 4 as it had a tendency to self wave on drawing . I must admit my main concern was to avoid cutting myself .

I live in a juristiction where things that flip open are frowned upon , so I keep my pivots tight and my profile low . I think most LEO's would not be too happy to see a knife that magically opened on removal from the pocket .

When they (LEO's ) get unhappy they can often fall back on some catch all statutes .

Chris
 
Why press your luck by carrying something where there's any question? Particularly when you can deploy a standard framelock or even a lockback faster than an auto using Robin Brown's technique, there's no point or tactical advantage.

Most LEOs are good guys, and size people up pretty fast. But they're not flawless, and if they perceive you as some kind of mall ninja, Steven Seagal wannabe, I've seen them push it pretty good. IMO it's best to err on the side of caution when it comes to knife laws.
 
Dog of War said:
Particularly when you can deploy a standard framelock or even a lockback faster than an auto using Robin Brown's technique, there's no point or tactical advantage.
Click to expand...

Thats kind of a vague statement isn't it?

I think that is something that is more dependent on the particular knife than it is on the type of action / locking mechanisim it has. I personally think that a Kershaw Leek with the pocket clip in tip up configuration is about as fast as it gets. That or a wave.

Just saying that using a certain tequnique you can open a lockback as fast as an auto is stupid.
 
I think its pretty obvious what that means.

LEO's are just like anybody else, some are great guys / gals and some are total assholes.

I know both types
 
Welcome to Bladeforums!

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LEOs are 'Law Enforcement Officers' in case someone missed the question....
 
ginshun said:
Thats kind of a vague statement isn't it?

I think that is something that is more dependent on the particular knife than it is on the type of action / locking mechanisim it has. I personally think that a Kershaw Leek with the pocket clip in tip up configuration is about as fast as it gets. That or a wave.

Just saying that using a certain tequnique you can open a lockback as fast as an auto is stupid.
Click to expand...
Evidently you're not familiar with the "Brownie Pop" technique.

BTW, making personal attacks against people by calling their statements and opinions "stupid" does not reflect well on you. I'm certainly going to give you the chance to apologize, but if you choose not to do so, then please refrain from replying to my posts in the future.
 
Maybe stupid was a bit harsh, but I stand by my statement.

Just saying that "using said technique, you can open a lock back as faster than an auto" is niether an accurate nor intelligent statement. It has to be qualified by stating what particular knives you are talking about.

The particular knife is much more important to opening speed then any special technique for opening knives is.

I don't care what your technique is, you'll never get a Buck 110 out of your pocket and ready to go as fast as you will a Microtech Ultratech. Its the nature of the two knives.

Now, on the other hand, you can probably get a waved Endura (or even a non-waved one) out of your pocket and ready to go just as fast (or faster) than you can with a Microtech SOCOM or similar side opening button lock.

Thats just the way it is.
 
MBC77,

Like most knife laws and knife-related municipal ordinances, enforcement tends to be selective and varies greatly by jurisdiction. For example, New York City has apparently been quite aggressive in their enforcement and prosecution under the NYC Administrative Code and the NY State gravity knife statute for even "ordinary" (non-assisted opening, non-wave type) folders.

Some states, such as Massachusetts, prohibit "wave" type knives by explicitly restricting carry of any knife equipped with a "...device or case which enables a knife with a locking blade to be drawn at a locked position..." See, Mass. Gen. Laws. Ch. 269, Sec. 10 (b) (2005).

Other states have switchblade / gravity knife statutes that, depending on the wording, may cover and restrict carry of assisted-opening knives, including knives with "wave" type features (basically, knives that incorporate opening devices on the blade, as opposed to merely the handle).

While yet others, such as California, have incorporated a "bias towards closure" test, i.e., that "provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position[,]" See, Cal. Penal Code Sec. 653k (2006), in their statutes to allow certain types of assisted opening folders (and ordinary folders as well, of course).

The reality is, broad and differing ranges of regulation exist between even neighboring states, and that fact is unlikely to change anytime soon.

Anyway, hope this helps, although I know the law may seem clear as mud sometimes.

Stay sharp, and stay safe,
david.

__________________
"We are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the G*d of Nature has placed in our power. ... The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave." Patrick Henry, Virginia Convention, Richmond, March 23, 1775.

Note: Nothing in this post is intended as legal advice. Please consult qualified counsel should you need such advice.
 
Welcome to Bladeforums, KnifeLawGuy! Sorry, but advertising is not allowed on this forum. If you want to advertise your book on Bladeforums you'll have to become a Gold or Platinum Member and advertise in the Exchange.
 
Knifelaw guy, what has your experience been with NYC- NY state on Gravity knives. There is no case law that I have found. Only case law is on the butterfly knives, and it has been always found that they are not gravity knives. I have not found any case law indicating that a normal lock back was or was not a gravity knife when said knife could be opened by inertia or gravity. I would love to hear your opinion on this....
 
Hi Tom,

When it comes to knives, NYC and the rest of the state appear to be proverbial worlds apart, both in their regulatory treatment of knives, and in enforcement. Being from NY, I'm sure you're aware of this, and see this dichotomy in other areas besides knife regulation. :)

I have heard from other attorneys who have defended individuals arrested in NYC and who have been charged under the gravity knife statute for carrying ordinary locking folders, but unfortunately, as you noted, there does not appear to be much appellate case law with regard to the issue. The existing balisong case law does at least support the proposition that balisongs are not gravity knives under the NY gravity knife statute, although the state's highest court, the NY Court of Appeals, does not appear to have yet ruled on the issue. Thus, the balisong-as-gravity-knife issue has likely not yet been definitively decided on a state-wide basis.

As you are undoubtedly aware, under NY law a "gravity knife" is defined as:

"Gravity knife" means any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever or other device.
Click to expand...
N.Y. Penal Law, Sec. 265.00 (5) (2005)

Unfortunately, virtually any ordinary locking folder without a closed-position lock can technically fall under this definition, even though the average knife enthusiast would hardly consider an ordinary folder a gravity knife. I suspect that without a clear appellate decision on the "ordinary-folder-as-gravity-knife" issue, NYC will likely continue its aggressive enforcement and prosecution posture based on this distorted (but technically plausible) reading of the gravity knife statute. Sad, but that's life in the big city, I guess (sorry, had to get that cliche in there :))

Wish I had a more positive assessment to report.

Stay sharp, and stay safe,
david.

__________________
"We are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the G*d of Nature has placed in our power. ... The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave." Patrick Henry, Virginia Convention, Richmond, March 23, 1775.
 
Knife law guy, thanks for your response, I had emailed MR Levine in the past on this question, and he had stressed the word "release" in the definition of Gravity knife, where as the word "open" is used for a switchblade, therefore making the connection that a true gravity knife has a blade which is released ( as in by the pressing of a button or lever) before opened by gravity or inertia. I do believe this was the intent of the law when written as the knives that were displayed to the State Assembly were true gravity knives that were sold at that time. However, there was a Federal "request" made to Buck knives to redesign the Model 110 so that it would not be a "gravity knife" as used by Bikers in the 1970s. This was done by Buck, and if you look at there site and the history of the 110 you will find the gravity knife change noted I believe in 1974.The Axis lock system I could see being called a gravity knife by any standard. All that being said, I was a NY LEO for several years, and I can't remember a true trial ever held over that I knew of on simple weapons possesion for a gravity knife. The knife was always tied to a assault or robbery and was now a weapon reguardless of function or design. The cases were someone has been charged with possession of a gravity knife seemed to have always been plead out.

I did join your site and look forward to getting more info.....now that I am not a LEO anymore, I always carry my NY sportsman license ( fishing, hunting, trapping) in my wallet next to a small fishing hook attached to ten feet of fishing line and a complete fishing outfit in both my cars....look at section 265.20 #6 and you will see why I do that......always a loop hole if needed to fight agressive enforcement...Tom
 
it's been my experience that unless you're drunk, or being a peckerhead it probably won't be a problem. worst case is the officer may take it from you. that being said with the current crop of tactical knives, especially the waved models why put yourself in a position to have a problem. of course if you have some disability, stroke,loss of limb etc then i don't think you'd ever have a problem. Most times you get stopped it's up to you how much trouble you get. later,ahgar
 
Hi Tom,

I agree with you and Mr. Levine that that's the original intent of the gravity knife statute.

The statute's wording under N.Y. Penal Law Sec. 265.00 (5) unfortunately lends itself to a much broader (and technically plausible) interpretation based on the plain wording of the statute that covers much more than what you or I or the typical knife enthusiast would likely consider a true gravity knife. I also don't recall any case law in NY that distinguishes between "release" and "open" as they apply to the statutory definitions of switchblade and gravity knife under NY law, or that interprets the term "release" as requiring operating a mechanical device (button, lever, spring, etc.) Indeed, Sec. 265.00 (5) talks about such a device only in relation to locking the blade in the open position, after the blade has been "released" by gravity or the application of centrifugal force.

I also agree that simple possession cases often tend to get settled on a plea, rather than going to trial. I do, however, recall at least one case that did go to trial. As I recall the defendant was acquitted, although I don't remember whether this was a jury trial or a bench trial. This was several years ago if memory serves.

I like your idea of trying to take advantage of the Sec. 265.20 (6) exemption, although this may be less successful if you're in mid-town Manhattan dressed in a suit ("really, officer, this is my, uh, Armani fishing vest ...") :)
 
I'm new to the forum but enjoying it already. So far everyone is on to something about how your demeanor determines how much trouble you get in. I have a nifty Benchmade 9050 Auto but I dare not leave the house with it. Most cops that I've run into can tell if you're a knucklehead or just someone with good taste in gear. I usually like Benchmade knives, but I like the pocket clip on SOG brand knives because it let's the knife hang all the way in the pocket and not stick out at all. Sometimes in public, a big knife is not always better. I also like the Spyderco native as it is unobtrusive.
 
Hi David ( Knife law Guy),

It seems we view the NY law the same way. I would not carry a switchblade at 3 am to a bar in a suit with the hope of getting away with it as a loop hole say I am on my way to the lake ( I have fished for large mouth Bass in Central Park and caught a few). I do however, consider it to be a way of deterring an arrest by a officer who could make a Buck model 110 flick open once after ten tries and then considers it a valid arrest. I have been out of law enforcement for a few years now, but I never remember anybody going in for just knife possesion, unless a Court Officer brought them in for tring to enter a Court House with one.

How do you think assited openers are viewed in NY? I have two close friends I worked with years ago that are now fairly high up in the ranks of the NYPD ( a Captain and a Chief), and they personally agree they are not switchblades, but feel many officers would take someone in and charge them with a switchblade. They are sold by Walmart, Dicks, and all the gun and knife shops here. My biggest fear with them is most can still be flicked open, and therefore may still quailfy as a gravity knife, even though they are clearly designed differently.

Thanks
Tom
 
Hi Tom,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I agree with your assessment regarding assisted openers. I suspect that the captain and chief are correct that many NYPD officers would consider an assisted opener a switchblade, even though the assist device is on the blade, not the handle, and the NY statute defines a switchblade as "any knife which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife." N.Y. Penal Law Sec. 265.00 (4) (2005). (emphasis mine)

For what it's worth, as a LE trainer I've spoken with a number of officers over the years (including a few NYPD folks), and their opinions on knives cover the gamut, from very knowledgeable and informed of the laws in their jurisdictions, to fairly uninformed, to misinformed. The problem with assisted openers is, to an uninformed or misinformed officer, the dramatic opening of such knives looks mighty "switchblade-like", and might lead him/her to make an arrest for a switchblade violation. I concur with your NYPD friends that many NYPD officers might make that arrest, although I also agree that arrests often result from more than simple knife possession, i.e., there is some other charge, such as brandishing, disturbing the peace, disorderly conduct, etc. (depending on the jurisdiction).

Even if the person arrested isn't ultimately prosecuted, or is prosecuted unsuccessfully, that person now has an arrest record (and maybe a hefty lawyer's bill) for a weapons-related offense, which can lead to adverse consequences or complications on a wide variety of life / career choices in the future, such as firearms carry permits, certain professional and business licenses, etc. Of course, adverse consequences and/or complications on such permits and licenses are much more likely to attach to actual convictions, versus "mere" arrests, on weapons-related offenses (in this case, fourth-degree criminal possession under N.Y. Penal Law Sec. 265.01.)

Finally, as you noted, such knives may potentially also support a gravity knife charge under N.Y. Penal Law Sec. 265.01, due to the NY statutory definition of gravity knife under Sec. 265.00 (5). Since practically any folder without a closed-position lock can be opened by centifgual force, and application of such force applied while holding the blade will often open a folder that's hard to open with centifugal force while holding the handle (and the NY statute does not appear to limit application of such force to the handle), my suggestion to those who carry folders, whether assisted opening or not, is to make sure the folder's pivots are sufficiently tight (obviously not so tight that you need two hands, a vise and a crowbar with a gorilla jumping up and down on the other end to open :D ) to minimize the ability to easily open with centrifugal force. I think that's the best you can do, unless you have a folder that has a closed-position lock, which, ironically enough, is often found on automatics (switchblades)!
 
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