Houston, we have a problem...

RogerP

RogerP

Joined
Feb 28, 2002
Messages
13,348
Let me preface this post by saying that I have generally had nothing but the best of experiences in buying custom knives – whether directly from makers or from some of the better-known dealers. Which is what makes the following situation as baffling as it is frustrating. These are uncharted waters for me and I’d really appreciate any suggestions on where I go from here. At this point I don’t want to name the maker. This is the chain of events thus far in point form:

In the fall of 2002 I e-mailed a custom knifemaker and inquired about ordering a bowie. I was given a quote and told the maker I would like to make it a firm order. I state my preference for handle material (African blackwood) and ask when I could expect delivery. I was told by the end of January 2003. This seemed pretty quick, as I knew that this maker is in demand, but so much the better.

Feb. 17/03 - Maker e-mails me and says he won't have any blackwood for 3 weeks, would I consider an ancient wood that he has in stock. I say fine.

Feb. 24/03 - Maker e-mails me and says the knife is just about complete. He’s going away for 2 weeks and will assemble and ship my knife on his return. I suggest that I’ll send out the money order since the knife is just about good to go so that there will be no delay waiting on funds upon his return. Maker says there is some problem with his bank and foreign money orders (I’m in Canada, he’s not) would I wire the money. I say fine.

Feb 25/03 - Funds wired to maker. I send an e-mail that same day asking him to confirm that the wire went through OK. (but knowing that he'll be away for 2 weeks yet).

A month goes by - no response.

Mar. 27/03 - I send an e-mail asking again if the funds went through. I tactfully make no mention of the knife.

Mar. 27/03 - Maker replies, apologizes for delay in response – pleads computer problems. He confirms the wire went through fine He says the ancient wood split during satbilization - suggests other woods he has on hand.

Mar. 31/03 - I select a wood from the offered alternatives.

Mar. 31/03 - Maker e-mails me and says sorry for all the delays, says I'll have your knife ready and shipped in two weeks.

Two and a half months go by - no further contact - no knife.

May 16/03 - I e-mail maker requesting an update

3 weeks go by, no response.

June 06/03 - I e-mail maker asking again for an update, and suggesting that if there is some problem with delivery he should just let me know and give me a new delivery date.

2 weeks go by, no response.

June 19/03 - I send a further e-mail asking for a response to my previous 2 e-mails (which I attach for ease of reference).

There has been no further response from the maker.


I’m trying to come up with some reasonable explanation, but can’t. I have confirmed that I have the correct and current e-mail address and have reason to believe that this maker has been in contact with others via e-mail. This is a maker of unquestionably fine knives who enjoys a very good reputation – which makes the situation that much more incomprehensible to me. Back in February, he said he had a nearly-finished knife for which he has been paid. Since then – delays, delivery promises broken and now an outright refusal to respond. You know, if he had just said – look – I was way optimistic with my initial delivery date, I’ve fallen way behind in my orders (for whatever reason) and I can’t get you the knife until the coming fall, I would have said fine. (Even though that would beg the question of which nearly-finished knife he was referring to back in February).

I’m at the point where the whole experience has soured me on the knife itself. But how would I even demand a refund if the guy won’t respond? Where the heck do I go from here? Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Roger
 
That's rough.

Certified mail goes a long way towards verifying receipt of communications and is a more courts-friendly means of documenting transactions. If you're so fed up that a refund is the only way to go, there is an attorney general in every state of the United States and that office will have a consumer affairs' department.
 
If you don't want to go to the legal authorities yet, and if he belongs to something like the ABS or the Knifemakers Guild, maybe they can help out in getting a response from him.
 
You've been more than patient, Roger. This is very unfortunate and an unpleasant position for you to find yourself in. At this point, even if you receive the knife tomorrow, your experience will likely detract from your enjoyment of the knife.

Have you tried calling the maker on the phone?
 
Aussieland is megabucks to call. Enough is enough; time to out this maker of questionable practices!
 
Roger-

This is unfortunate.

I have to admit though that it can be easier than one might think to find themself in this maker's position.

Here is an example of a "similar" one I created for myself. Joe Sheard ordered a fighter from me at a local show and being over-confident and optimistic I told him one month for completion. Well, first off I ended up realizing I knew a LOT LESS about heat-treating then, than I thought I did.

Joe's order was set way back because of this....but it pushed me to really study and test and learn even more than I had been before then. This made me a much better bladesmith.

Then the knife was supposed to be done for the Oregon show, but I could NOT figure out how to get a good brown on the guard/ferrule. Then the handle was ruined about the same time!!!! grrrr :mad:

Now, the knife is done and it's something I'm proud of...because it holds the presence of many new techniques I was forced to learn in order to complete it.

The problem...it's taken several months more time than I had originally planned!!!!

The difference here though, is that Joe and I have kept in pretty constant email contact. AND, Joe is VERY understanding, and has gotten some amusement over watching me stumble, mumble, crawl, and rise again in the construction of his knife. Now we just have to figure out a time for him to pick it up!

So a lesson learned? Yes, I give myself some wiggle room on order deadlines. Also, I am very upfront with the customer about my current skills and whether or not there will be a learning curve involved for me in making their knife. Just the other night a customer asked about a silver sheath. I told him I would LOVE to make one, but that I haven't yet...and I know it will take some serious work to get the process under my belt. He understood and said, "Well, if you can get it figured out, great, if not...then maybe next time around!"

Stepping back from the whole-thing with Joe's knife...it was NOT a level of professionalism that I am striving to achieve...but I learned from it. And I tried to keep Joe in touch so that he understood that.

In the end...things can (and OFTEN do) go wrong...but the key is keeping things on the level with the customer (IMVHO).

I hope this maker can learn from his mistakes on this deal and progress because of it.

Thanks,
Nick
 
Before the maker learns from it, he needs to acknowledge the situation.

Roger wired the funds before the knife was complete. The maker may have used those funds to buy new materials and make his car payment. All of a sudden rent was due and he needed cash, so he completed another order so he could get paid. The next thing he knew, he had grocery bills and insurance payments to make, hence a need to make and sell more knives... would have to finish Roger's later, but since he already had that money that wasn't a priority - he needed to put food on the table, right?

It's a scenario we've seen played out before, and it's something no maker ever plans to get into. He just turns around all of a sudden and there's this giant problem. Unfortunately, it seems this maker has tried to avoid the problem instead of confront it. At this point, he needs a kick in the pants before he gets deeper into that hole.
 
Originally posted by NickWheeler

In the end...things can (and OFTEN do) go wrong...but the key is keeping things on the level with the customer (IMVHO).

Nick,

I couldn't agree with you more (with your entire post, but this sums it up nicely). There can be any number of reasons that a knife could be delayed, from an unintentionally unrealstic delivery forecast, to a sudden increase in orders, to (God forbid) sickness or injury or family problems. Some are avoidable, and some just happen - that's life. As with so many types of relationships -personal and professional - communication is the key.

While you may not view the situation with Joe as exhibiting a high level of professionalism one could hardly be too critical - you ran into problems actually making the knife and you kept your customer posted. Would that I had received a similar courtesy.

Joss,

I can understand wanting to know, but at this point I'd rather not say. I want to be as fair as possible. I am going to take up the suggestion of contacting a group with which he is affiliated and see if they can help resolve the situation (it was through that group that I confrmed that my contact info was current, but I did not indicate anything of the circumstances). I'll also try some form of hard-copy letter with confirmed delivery and see if that prompts a response, though I am not overly hopeful.

Thanks to all for your responses.

Regards,

Roger
Click to expand...
 
Roger,
First I am sorry that you are going through this.
Some thoughts on situations like this one come to mind. A lot of the folks that we order from are one person shows. If something happens (at it does happen) where a maker has to stop making knives there is no-one else to fill in. The type of thing that can cause varies from injury or sickness of the maker, a friend or loved one to being approached on a collaboration and having to put in the time and travel to make it work, to deciding at the last minute to go to a show, to equipment or shop problems, to military duty, to weddings and to other circumstances where the result causes the maker has to stop making knives for a period of time.

The key for many collectors when this type thing arises is honest and open communication. Personally I am never in a big hurry for a knife so missed dates do not bother me, what could frustrate me greatly would be a lack of communication. It is good to know if something has happened that would delay a promised delivery date. I don't need to know the details (unless there is something I can help with).

One of my favorite knives(other than some stuff made by close friends) is one that was held up by a shop fire. When the maker got in touch the day after the fire, they could have just told me there was an emergency and the knife would be late and it would be cool. In this case the maker felt comfortable in telling me what happened. We had only met once before when I placed the order at a show.

The maker finished the knife in the shop of a recently departed maker who lived in the area. In this case, I was able to help the maker out a little. The knife was pretty late, but a cherished friendship grew from it (and in the end that's all that counts.)

Give 'em a call.
Gus
 
Hey Gus,

I hope I didn't give the impression that the late (assuming it arrives someday) delivery was the main issue. It is the lack of communication that is most distressing in the circumstances.

As for delivery dates, the significance to me does not arise from an impatient need to have the knife NOW! but rather from a desire on my part to plan my budget so that I have funds available when the knife is expected. While I don't have as many incoming knives as flights landing at O'Hare, there are enough that I want to pay attention. If a knife is 6 months or a year late - or more - I'm not at all troubled as long as I'm kept informed.

Here's a bit of a reverse example. I have a pretty special damascus bowie on order with Bailey Bradshaw. Some months ago it came to my attention that Bailey had a pretty awesome damascus Sam Bell bowie availabe. I fell in love with that knife and wanted to get it, but it was within sight of the due date of the bowie I had on order. So I called up (or e-mailed, I forget) Bailey and, having confirmed he hadn't started on my pre-rdered knife, arranged to purchase the Sam Bell on the spot and to delay delivery of the pre-ordered knife. Win-win and smiles all around as best I can tell. (Bailey and his wife are just super people, by the way).

Anyway, I get the feeling I'm just rambling at this point, so I'll stop.

Cheers,

Roger
 
Roger , I feel bad that you are going through this.. I can relate to Nicks thoughts on this as i too have had my back against the wall a few times.. Its part of the madness and the love that makes us do what we do.
But there is no excuse for not communicating the problem or current situation. Even if I die (prematurely) my representative knows where my active order list is to inform those concerned of the permanent delay. Tragic thought maybe, to me ITS JUST GOOD BUSINESS.

Roger I also respect the way you are handling yourself through all this. Is the maker a Guild member? That would get you some swift accounting if he or she is a member.

Good luck
 
Roger,
It may have been the way I came across. Believe me, like you I find it very frustrating when the communication is not there. I hope this one works out quickly for you.
 
Update - I received an e-mail from the maker a short while ago. He has apologized again for the delay and has pointed to both health problems and computer problems to explain the situation. He has also provided an alternate e-mail address for me to try. I do most sincerely wish him improved health and am hopeful that I will receive the knife in the near future. Thanks to all for your input.

Regards,

Roger
 
Okay guys... I'm the Joe Nick's refering to...

Roger, it distresses me to hear stories like yours, as there have been other stories like it and I'm just waiting to experience my first one... and Nick wasn't one of 'em! :D

I met Nick at the NWKC show in Puyallup last fall. I watched him enter the rope cutting competion and spent the time chatting with Mick and Sue Penfold as the cutting took place.. Nick, Sue was rooting for you! And since I had found Mick and Sue to be so nice the several shows I'd run into them, I thought I'd meet Nick and look at his work...

Well, I was smitten! Man, the few pieces he had and his relative newness to the art had me sold... he had a nice piece very similar to what I was looking for, and I asked him if he could make one with a few minor modifications... well, he said yes. I also asked him how much up front he wanted.. I was willing to put up say 25%, but Nick said no, wait till it was done!

I know there have been threads on how much to put up front, even whether or not to put any up.. well, I wanted to, but Nick refused.

The rest of the story Nick has told - COMMUNICATION!!! Folks, that's all it took... Nick kept me informed, usually with a dose of profuse apologies for the delays, of what all he was doing... I continued to joke with him that I was sorta 'forcing' him to become a better bladesmith... (okay, I don't think I needed to force Nick, that's just the kind of guy he is - if it doesn't work right the way he knows, he'd call someone and find a better way... much to my satisfaction - as I've actually seen the blade!)

Now...if I could just get him to slow down enough for me to drive down there and get the dang thing, I'll be as happy as an INFIholic at the unveiling of the new line of Busses! :eek: :D

Roger, I hope this deal works out for you, because I can empathise with what a collector goes through in trying to find exactly what we want.. and the unknown is usually worse than the waiting...
If anyone learns anything through this thread, please learn to simply keep the communications lines open... I'm losing hair fast enough without having to fret about a deal that both parties have agreed to. And I hate to get that bad aftertaste of deals that go sour due to a lck of something as simple as a "Hi, I'm sick and I'll get back to you!"

Good luck to those collectin', and Happy Hammerin' to those makin'!
 
RogerP,

Happy to hear that you've been in contact with your knifemaker without resorting to the draconian suggestions I put forth. Hopefully his health will get better and your knife will get finished.
 
This is a bit like DeJaVue...........had a heated dialog on this subject on another forum just today(the case of the disappearing knifemaker)....took over an hour to sort it all out....wish I could copy the whole thread!!

Tanya Begg
 
Roger, you're a rare gentleman. As a knifemaker, I've had my share of situations similar to the one you described. I always ansewered emails, but feeling guilty I didn't originate that many. That was my fault. But, until you've been there you'll never know the depth of guilt that you can experience when confronted with a situation like this (and it just snoballs). It can effect your health and your mental well-being. That's one reason I quit giving delivery dates. And I've never accepted pre-payment, although I've recieved it a time or two without asking for it.

No one has a right to know who this maker is besides you. But I think you did the right thing by asking for input from folks here about your situation. In my opinion, once you send the money, you deserve to have the knife in your hands as soon as possible. There are few excuses that hold water to make up for that lack. Especially when there is a lack of communication like you experienced. Be patient, as long as your patience holds out Roger. After that, do what you have to do to get satisfaction. If this maker puts you off again I would give serious thought to visiting his place of residence and confronting him personally. There's nothing like a paying customer to change your perspective about the delivery date of a paid for knife. I haven't had that happen yet but there's always that possibility. I hope you get your knife soon and I hope there's the possibility that you can still keep it after it's delivered. Hold the knife and think back to what made you want it in the first place. Put the makers problems in perspective and enjoy his work as best you can. All makers are not created equal and we are all human. Good luck with your future purchases.
 
Roger, The next time you talk to this maker, ask him why he has not phoned me as he promised six months ago. He also didn't reply to my e-mail requests to order three more knives. Several people have claimed to have seen him posting on other forums (he must be using a borrowed computer). My experience has been that the officers of the association that he belongs to have been unsuccessful in getting him to respond to my concerns about the award winning knife that I returned to him for repair nearly a year ago. There is a rather disturbing pattern to the problems that a number of people have been having with this indiviual lately. It's really a pity because he has the talent to become one of the top makers. :( Racer Roy
 
Actually, he was on this forum within the last few minutes. I am sure he is reading this thread and knows all about what is being posted.
 
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