How about an INFI puukko?

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UffDa

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Now I don't want to start anything, but how about an INFI puukko? Wouldn't that be like the "other guys" knife? Then we would have a blade with a true zero edge like the Laps and Finns have been using forever. Puukkos don't have guards and the Finns don't seem to cut themselves. Well, maybe they just don't admit it.
 
Oh noooooo, this shouldn't start anything! ;)

In reality, I've never been nuts about any guardless designs unless a knife is designed ONLY for pull cuts away from the point. There's a lot of danger lurking in front of that handle if you stab or push into something when your hand is wet!:eek:
 
I always wondered about that. It seems to work for the Finns, but I would think that they only slice with them. The butt of most of their handles are larger then front. Also, the edge begins right in front of the handle on most of them. No way to choke up on the blade.

Ed Fowler spent quite a bit of time on the killing floor of a meat packing plant trying different designs. He has guards on all his knives. Even cheap stickers have guards to keep your hand from slipping onto the blade.

Oh well...to each his own.
 
I've always suspected there's a lotta guys with nicknames like 3-fingered Sven.
 
Puukkos like stamped machetes (no primary grinds) are the worst way to grind a knife.

When you sharpen a puukko, you have to plane down the entire edge which is an inch or so wide. Why would you want to do this when you could be sharpening a bevel that is a 1/16" or so wide on a knife with a secondary edge bevel.

Use of a optimal primary grind and secondary edge bevel will allow superior cutting ability, and even larger advantages to durability (both main body and especially the edge) and ease of sharpening many times to one.

On rec.knives there was a recent discussion on puukkos. When I brought up the point about having to sharpen the entire edge bevel, Juha Sakkinen pointed out that Finnish puukkos actually have secondary edge bevels and are sharpened in that manner.

Now if this is done, you solve the ease of sharpening issue, and greatly enhance the edge durability - however you have basically a thickly saber ground knife which will be out cut by a knife with a higher flat grind.

Ref "Is there any "puukko" fans out there?" :

http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=ecbbdb8f04371973&rnum=1

The Japanese quickly figured out that having to sharpen such wide surfaces is very time consuming so they added hollows to all such grinds and used laminates for the main body so only the edge is left difficult to machine.

INFI would not be a good choice for a puukko, nor would any steel with a high wear resistance. If you want to know why, take a piece of carbide and scrape a line across the flats of such a steel, now hand polish the flats to a fine finish and see how long it takes. You have to do this every time you sharpen a knife with a puukko style geometry.

Puukkos were traditionally used with plain carbon steels, which are very easy to machine and thus even the wide edges can be honed in a decent amount of time - assuming they are never seriously blunted or damaged.

They are also *very* cheap and easy to replace, <10$ . One of the least hype filled promoters of puukkos was the late James Mattis, who while describing them as indeed cutting well, would also not sharpen them but just replace them when the edge got too damaged.

In his video on knives Ed Fowler takes one of his Pronghorns and cut into his sharpening stone a few times until it is seriously dulled. He then sharpens it in a similar amount of passes on the same stone which is possible as his edges are very narrow, 1/100 as wide as a puukko edge. Try this with a puukko and see what happens.

Puukkos and stamped machetes also have lots of other problems, the use of no primary grind also creates parallel flats and very wide edges which both wedge badly and are high friction contact points.

Note that not all puukkos have slick round handles and lack guards, some have ergonomic grips and actual guards :

http://www.ragweedforge.com/731.jpg

Though it would still benefit from a higher primary grind and secondary edge bevel.

-Cliff
 
We'll have to agree to disagree on that, Cliff.

I have found puukkos not only great for woodwork and other slicing/cutting tasks, but easy to sharpen as well.

The grip is also outstanding for cutting from many different angles and handholds.

I have a feeling the Scandinavians know a little something about knives and that working with them under a variety of both mild and harsh conditions for centuries has refined the design to where it is today.

This doesn't negate other designs, but your wholesale dismissal of this knife (and machetes) seems ludicrous in the face of the millions whose experience would vastly differ with your take.
 
That's excellent information Cliff. Thanks for posting it. It is one of the clearest explanations I have heard about the positives and negatives of the Puukko style grind geometry.

The manufacturing step saved in skipping the need for a secondary edge obviously contributes greatly to a reduction in cost, and helps to keep these blades at an affordable price for the consumer.

Admittedly, ever since I found out that I am you and you are me, I have been a bit hesitant to post any comments in support of any of your findings because SOME people will think that I am simply agreeing with myself!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :D

Nice job Jer. . . errrr I mean Cliff!;)


Jerry
 
Blues, I don't really see where Cliff is dismissing the design but rather is pointing to the benefits of using a secondary edge for added strength and ease of resharpening.

He even points to a post that explains this as well. I've been hearing all weekend about how knives can be improved. This is Cliff's opinion and I agree that the modifications he points out would greatly improve the functionality of the design. I really like the idea of a guard as well. Just think what you'll save on bandaids!!! :eek:

Nice to see you again Blues!:)

Jerry
 
Blues,

Are you saying that simply because a tool has been used in a certain configuration or manufactured in a certain fashion for a long period of time, then that proves that is the most refined way to make or configure something? If that were true, there would be no need for modern weapons (after all slings and bludgeons were in use much longer than any contemporary weapon system) and there would be no need for improvements on much of anything else either. In fact, with that logic, we don't need steel. Didn't iron work for generations as knife material. Wait... we didn't need iron either. Bronze did just fine. Oooops. Bronze was an "improvement" over stone....

Do I think that the Scandinavians did remarkably well using a knife that was the product of primitive machining practices. Absolutely. And being partly of Scandinavian descent, I take some pride in that. I speaks volumes about their individual skill and craftsmanship. That does not make the puukko the be all, end all of bladeware.

The older is better arguement has been proven incorrect on plenty of levels. It's probably time to let it go. Older doesn't make something better any more that newer means something is better.

BTW, what are you doing on the internet? Didn't we get along fine with out it?;)
 
Originally posted by Jerry Busse

Admittedly, ever since I found out that I am you and you are me, I have been a bit hesitant to post any comments in support of any of your findings because SOME people will think that I am simply agreeing with myself!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :D

Nice job Jer. . . errrr I mean Cliff!;)


Jerry

I am he and you are me and we are all together!
goo-goo-goo-joob!
 
I concur Spearhead, with a portion of your statement, that is...since I'm certain I'm younger than you...I am most certainly better....:D ;)
.
.
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.Just had to man...
 
Well, Jerry, when Cliff says "Puukkos like stamped machetes (no primary grinds) are the worst way to grind a knife.", that's a pretty strong statement.

On the other hand, I think my comments, based upon my own experience using these knives and what I've learned over the years, were pretty benign. (Certainly you, I mean Cliff, well, couldn't find any offense given there. :cool: )

Anyway, everyone has their opinions on knives, grinds etc. Cliff gave his opinion, I stated mine. Cliff and I (or is it you and me, Jerry) have had many productive conversations about knives (and sharpening) via email over the years. I don't think he'd take my meaning the wrong way.

Thanks for the welcome.
 
Originally posted by bachan
I concur Spearhead, with a portion of your statement, that is...since I'm certain I'm younger than you...I am most certainly better....:D ;)

That's it. Who's in charge around here?!? We need to institute and ID check at the door...:p
 
Spearhead,

I don't think we've met before but you've sure been able to surmise a lot about what I think and my reasoning from my short statement above.

Given that that's the case you probably don't need for me to tell you what I'm thinking right now...

Be that as it may I will offer that I don't think the puukko has remained stagnant in its development but rather has been refined over the years. That pertains to handle materials, steel, heat treatment etc.

And yes, even dinosaur that I am I have come to appreciate new technology. (Hell, I've even owned a few Busse's in my time, and still have the Basics.) Now, I admit that I am a bit odd in running a cable modem with Windows 95, but I assure you that in my 20+ years of law enforcement experience (five years on SRT) I have never carried anything more antiquated than a Series 70 Gov't model...

...And in 20 years of technical climbing and backpacking from Alaska to Alberta to Wyoming and Yosemite I've actually progressed from using goldline rope and carabiner brakes to high tech rope and figure eights etc.

I use my gear. Some of the old stuff is as good as it gets. Some of the new stuff is much better.

I like cable better than dial up.

I also think puukkos are great knives. (As I said, there are lots of great knives. I have a bunch of 'em myself.)
 
Alright Blues. No need to get edgy. I have old gear that I like too. I wasn't surmising anything but was asking you a question based on what you stated. Did I embellish on that question for the sake of humor and illustration via the ludicrous? Yup. That's what I do. Ask around.
 
Blues :

I have found puukkos not only great for woodwork and other slicing/cutting tasks but easy to sharpen as well.

Compared to which knives specifially? Which makers would you limit to not being able to make a knife that out cuts a puukko, is more durable, and easier to sharpen. You have used blades from Ray Kirk. I used his JS bowie. It cut better than any Puukko I have used as the edge angle was more acute, as was the primary grind (by a factor of about two).

Yes if you take a puukko and compare it to a heavy "tactical" knife like a TOPS Anaconada, or Strider WB, or something similar, you fill find that the puukko handles cutting with generally less force. This however is *not* because it has a single bevel grind. It is because the edge angle is more acute, about half - plus the blade stock is thinner.

If you compare a puukko to a knife actually also intended for similar tasks, very light work, and that knife has an optimal primary grind, knives by makers like David Boye, Phil Wilson, and the like, you will find they easily out cut the puukkos and sharpen *much* faster. The edges are also far more durable.

You don't have to go custom, lots of knives can be found with very thin stock, high primary grinds and acute edge geometry. Depending on how far Swamp Rat takes the new D2 line, they should easily stand with a puukko in terms of cutting ability and could surpass it on most thick cutting on binding materials.

Consider that if it was just as easy to sharpen a bevel that is one inch wide as it is 1/16" wide you can just as easily plane down steel stock (or anything else) regardless of length or width as surface area doesn't matter. Bring this technology to the machining industry and you would be a make a billion overnight.

Consider the massive difference in amount of steel that needs to be removed in both cases, one is literally up to a hundred times greater than the other. Can you sharpen a puukko relatively fast - sure however that is a really vague statement and thus meaningless as you have not defined fast nor how blunt was the knife nor how it was sharpened. Make some specific defined relative comparisons.

Will the puukko sharpening always be vastly longer than a knife with a secondary edge bevel - yes. The edge on the secondary edge beveled knife can also have a more obtuse angle and still cut better because the edge is thinner due to the primary grind and thus will be more durable under the same stress and thus will sharpen even faster than the difference in relative surface area would predict.

The only advantage the puukko has for sharpening is you can lay the bevel flat again the stone and thus the angle variance is low. This isn't negated if a hollow relief is used, nor a primary grind. Boye had the same feature on his knives and they had a primary grind. You can just shape the guard or choil area as an angle rest.

You can also just put a wedge under the spine during honing. Or rest the blade against your thumb. You can also angle the hone and use the knife sharpmaker style as your ability to just a perpendicular line is *massively* greater than to judge some arbitrary angle.

Yes if the knife is just barely blunted and can be restored to sharpeness with a few passes on a strop, a puukko will sharpen easily - as any knife will in such situations. However use two knives for heavy cutting on abrasive or difficult to cut materials until the edges are so blunted you can actually see the rolling and wear and now sharpen them.

The grip is also outstanding for cutting from many different angles and handholds.

And having a guard prevents this? Altering the shape to aid in ergonomics, or texture prevents this? And again - not all puukkos have this shape as they realize that it has it limitations and thus make them with guards and contouring on the grips.

... the Scandinavians know a little something about knives and that working with them under a variety of both mild and harsh conditions for centuries has refined the design ...

Why stop with the puukko, why not go back to the hand stone axe, that was used for *way* longer than a puukko. It was also used by people living in a *much* more demanding enviroment who depending on their tools every single day in constant threat of death by the elements of predation. By your logic this means it is a superior design, vastly superior in fact.

[my comments]

... ludicrous in the face of the millions whose experience would vastly differ with your take.

Axes were long used to fell trees, I would assume many primitive culture still use them as the main wood cutting tool - this should however not make you ignore the use of a saw. As soon as saws were introduced they replaced the axe almost overnight for felling (the axe was delegated to just waste removal) and bucking. This isn't a slam on the millions of people who used and axe and helped it evolve - it just took the next step.

-Cliff
 
I've had several Puukko's in my time (Mora, Frost, Brusletto, etc.) and all of them were screaming sharp out of the box.
That changed with use however and I found the sharpening to be very time consuming and often difficult.
I may have been really poor at sharpening, but it worked fine with my Puma's and other knives.
I always ended up either selling them or giving them away pretty fast.
That is not to say the design is flawed; it just didn't work well for me.

I remember watching a swedish custom maker (sorry, forgot his name) from Mora on TV some time ago. He was making a wood working knife (in 12C27 steel, wharncliffe style) and he said two things that explained a lot to me:
"Traditional scandinavian knives are ground the way they are because it's easy and fast for the maker. A full flat grind is better and gives the knife a lot longer life, which I wan't a rather expensive handmade knife to have"
And: "You see me polishing this Masur Birch handle very glossy. People like that, but a slightly rough handle is always better and won't give you blisters or cause your hand to slip onto the blade - but you can't explain that to people!"

Bo
 
Originally posted by Jerry Busse
Admittedly, ever since I found out that I am you and you are me, I have been a bit hesitant to post any comments in support of any of your findings because SOME people will think that I am simply agreeing with myself!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :D

Nice job Jer. . . errrr I mean Cliff!;)


Jerry


LMFAO!!! :D
 
Ok, no pukkos :)
But how aout INFI Khukri with more or less traditional handle :D
18 inch Ang Khola clone would be very nice IMHO.
 
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