How about fixed blade laws for NY?

D

d.weglarz13

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Jun 4, 2008
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I have been reading everything under the sun about gravity knives and such being debatable all over, but nothing about fixed blades? i know they are safer to carry than folders in NY, because of the gravity knife laws, but what about a small fixed blade? or a medium sized one? The owner of the knife store by me says you can carry a balisong anywhere on long island, but not the city. Also, he said you can carry a fixed blade anywhere, as long as it is single edged. it doesn't matter the size. Is this right? i don't carry folders, so i don't care. i would like to know what others know about fixed blades in new york, especially long island. thanks. btw, i carry a fixed blade for edc here on LI, and like i said, everyday. I have however, been stopped plenty of times, and they always used to take the balisongs from me, but sometimes not the fixed blades, even if over 3 or 4 inches. Any info? thanks
 
Did I say something wrong? I only ask because I didn't find the answer in the past threads. I will keep searching though, i guess the question has been answered already.
 
I did not see your post, but you did not say anything wrong! In NY State, there is no blade lenght written in the law, and a single edge fixed blade that does not have a weapon blade design ( tanto, dagger, bayonet, kriss, etc) is OK to carry anywhere but NYC. In NYC, it is OK as long as it is NOT exposed and under 4". In all of NYS it must not be carried as a weapon ( including self defense). You need not have a direct need to carry it, but I suggest you have one thought up to say is your intended lawful reason for carrying it.

I assume you have been shopping on Sunrise Hwy, at the Swordsman shop? Nice guy, but not too sure he is 100% up on the law. He has the case law about how balisongs are not gravity knives, but they are considered dangerous knives ( same charge).

Under what conditions have you had knives taken off you? Why where you stopped? Searched? Did the police threaten you with arrest if you did not allow them to take the butterfly knife ? Nassau County? I ask this since as a former NYC LEO and Nassau resident with a 16 year old son, I am curiuos how your losses came about. The Nassau PD once stopped my son and his friends for being in a park at 7 pm ( twilght in September) saying it was after dark and they were not allowed there. They searched them and found a small folding knife my son carries on him. It is a totally legal knife that you could not flick open ( I can't and I can flick open anything). The officer told him it was a switchblade! The officers threaten them with arrest for tresspass, and my son for the knife. They called the parents and I was there in two minutes. The officer asked me if I was aware my son was carrying a knife, and I told him yes, that it was legal, and I am a former Captain from the city, so I know the law. He quickly gave me the knife back ( from his pants pocket were he was most likely going to keep it). I am not knocking the Nassau PD as I find them very polite and responsive, and police everywhere treat teens in a different manner than any other age group ( I know I did). I am just wondering why you had so much trouble?
 
tom19176 said:
I did not see your post, but you did not say anything wrong! In NY State, there is no blade lenght written in the law, and a single edge fixed blade that does not have a weapon blade design ( tanto, dagger, bayonet, kriss, etc) is OK to carry anywhere but NYC. In NYC, it is OK as long as it is NOT exposed and under 4". In all of NYS it must not be carried as a weapon ( including self defense). You need not have a direct need to carry it, but I suggest you have one thought up to say is your intended lawful reason for carrying it.

I assume you have been shopping on Sunrise Hwy, at the Swordsman shop? Nice guy, but not too sure he is 100% up on the law. He has the case law about how balisongs are not gravity knives, but they are considered dangerous knives ( same charge).

Under what conditions have you had knives taken off you? Why where you stopped? Searched? Did the police threaten you with arrest if you did not allow them to take the butterfly knife ? Nassau County? I ask this since as a former NYC LEO and Nassau resident with a 16 year old son, I am curiuos how your losses came about. The Nassau PD once stopped my son and his friends for being in a park at 7 pm ( twilght in September) saying it was after dark and they were not allowed there. They searched them and found a small folding knife my son carries on him. It is a totally legal knife that you could not flick open ( I can't and I can flick open anything). The officer told him it was a switchblade! The officers threaten them with arrest for tresspass, and my son for the knife. They called the parents and I was there in two minutes. The officer asked me if I was aware my son was carrying a knife, and I told him yes, that it was legal, and I am a former Captain from the city, so I know the law. He quickly gave me the knife back ( from his pants pocket were he was most likely going to keep it). I am not knocking the Nassau PD as I find them very polite and responsive, and police everywhere treat teens in a different manner than any other age group ( I know I did). I am just wondering why you had so much trouble?
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It is a good thing that you were there to intervene. You were probably extended "professional courtesy" because you are an honorably retired LEO. Any other parent would probably have been told to call the bail bondsman and tell it to the juvie court judge. You are correct: police do tend to treat young people "in a different manner than any other age group"; definitely not a good manner! That being the case, they should understand that alienating young people is not a smart thing to do. These same young people who had negative encounters with LEOs will be less likely to cooperate in investigations and less likely to come forward as witnesses to crimes, making the LEO's job that much more difficult. What if an LEO was ambushed and brutally attacked or was the victim of a automobile accident and the only witness was one of these young people? He or she may decide to just walk away and not make the 911 cell phone call that could potentially save the officer's life. What goes around eventually comes around.
 
Thanks, i appreciate it. I have been wondering this for a while now, and while i carry a fixed blade every day, it sure feels good to know I wasn't breaking any laws. Any news on butterfly knives? Like i said, I have had cops take them away, but from what i know they are legal too, as long as single edged. Anyway, thanks again for the replies.
david
 
The guy on Sunrise Highway! Yes! Thats funny. Thats him, his name is Larry, and I have been going to him for knives since I was like 8, and my mother used to buy them for me from him. I figured he might not be all that caught up with everything lol.
The couple of times I can remember, i was usually stopped by cops in Queens, both times detectives, and they always took away my butterfly knives, and also i was a teen at the time. I know now, not to bring butterfly knives, but i always figured that they were legal, and that the police only assumed they were not. so, i guess i figured the same on any knife i carry. The folding knife thing isn't a problem for me, mostly because although i have wasted a lot of money on collecting many of them, over the years i have been accustomed to mainly fixed blades. So, knowing that fixed blades are the way to go in ny is great. thanks for taking the time to explain.

Couple of questions:
you mentioned that in NYC they can't be visible. So, does that mean it is ok to have it concealed? i guess this is ok because it is not a weapon? and, on Long island, what about carrying my knives concealed? I was under the impression that any knife other than the safety ones with the blunt tips were considered weapons in design. Can you ellaborate? I carry a fighter/utility knife usually, so I am guessing that i should look for something a little less "fighter." Its good to know that blade size is not an issue also. Thanks again for the patience and the help.
David
 
David, butterfly knives have been declared not to be gravity knives in several case law decisions in NY simple because they do not lock open automatically. The issue with them is that they are viewed as "dangerous" knives, in that the non knife nut world feels they were made solely for the use as a weapon, and not for any other reason. The Sulliavan Law of many years back, banned concealled carry of any weapons. The Penal Law was brought in decades ago to replace many older laws and unify them. The present law ( the NYS Penal Law) does not prohibit concealled or open carry of a knife. It remains silent on that issue. NYC passed a law under their Administrative Code when Mayor Koch was in office limiting the blade lenght to 4", and stateing that it MUST be not visible at all. For many years this was not enforced, and then only enfoced on large sheath knives, but in today wonderful we need to make arrest mode, any part of the knife that is visible ( even a pocket clip) become a violation of the code. My advice to everyone in NY is and has always been to carry a knife in your pocket, remove the clip so no one can say it was carried any other way, and if it locks make sure you have the blade so tight that it can not be flicked open ( even holding the blade and flicking the handle). I have several that I have made to work this way when I carry one in the city. If you carry it exposed, then the officer no longer has to prove he had reasonable cause to stop and search you, or at least to check the clearly visible knife to see if it is legal. If the knife is found as the result of a search, then the standards must be met to determine the search was legal in the first place, and that is where the judges in NYC tend to be on the side of the person stopped. The courts often hold a very strict standard on search and seizure, so why eliminate your best defense by open carry.
 
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Not sure if I answered your type of blade question. That is a hard one to give direction other than to say stay away from "weapon" blade designs, Tantos, daggers, kriss, baynoet, double edged all scream weapon by design to an officer. Don't forget that most stabbing situations tend to be domestic or robbery where often a steak knife is the weapon, so the less weapon like your knife appears the better for you.
 
tom19176 said:
NYC passed a law under their Administrative Code when Mayor Koch was in office limiting the blade lenght to 4", and stateing that it MUST be not visible at all.
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I remember back in the late 60's, when I was a young kid, seeing teenagers wearing large fixed blade hunting knives in Columbus Park. IIRC, the gangs were running pretty wild at the time (I believe this was before the Jade Squad).

Having kids of my own now, I understand now why my parents moved us out of the City in 1965.

Tom, thanks for your "boots on the ground insight". While its black-letter law that the Penal Code and like laws are drafted broadly, but are to be applied narrowly, there is often much open ground between theory and practice.

Chris
 
I had always thought that this was something I was never going to get an answer to, well a definitive one really, but not anymore. Tom, thanks for your detailed answers to my questions. It is sure good to know that we still have our rights to carry a knife, so long as we don't state it to be for self defense or fighting bad guys or something lol.
 
d.weglarz13 said:
I had always thought that this was something I was never going to get an answer to, well a definitive one really, but not anymore. Tom, thanks for your detailed answers to my questions. It is sure good to know that we still have our rights to carry a knife, so long as we don't state it to be for self defense or fighting bad guys or something lol.
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Just some food for thought...even if you are Right...it could easily cost thousands of dollars to prove it in court. Point being, if at all possible, don't give law enforcement reason to stop you.
 
Murphyslaw, there is always a chance for an arrest given the officer's knowledge of the law and your attitude. ADA's tend to deal with the facts. You will often have time to conference with the ADA either directly or through your lawyer either at arraingement or your first court date. The knife will NOT be there. so bring a picture of it and explain in detail how it is legal. You may spend a night in jail, but often there is little if any legal costs if the ADA realizes that you have your facts lined up, and clearly express to the ADA that you will go to trial over this charge. Hell will freeze over several times before a ADA in NYC takes a misdermanor case like this to trial. At some point they will offer you a ACD ( aquital comtemplateing dismissal) so long as you have no prior record ( they may offer this right off the bat).

It is also a defense in the NYS Penal Law to act in accordance with what was told to you by a government authority. Get a written opinion from a officer and keep it at home. This is an affirmative defense to a charge.

Little known Section 15.20 of the Penal law states the following:

. A person is not relieved of criminal liability for conduct because he engages in such conduct under a mistaken belief that it does not, as a matter of law, constitute an offense, unless such mistaken belief is founded upon an official statement of the law contained in (a) a statute or other enactment, or (b) an administrative order or grant of permission, or (c) a judicial decision of a state or federal court, or (d) an interpretation of the statute or law relating to the offense, officially made or issued by a public servant, agency or body legally charged or empowered with the responsibility or privilege of administering, enforcing or interpreting such statute or law

An officer telling you in wrting that your specfic knife is legal meets the requirements stated above ( At least to my reading of the law)
 
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