I see many custom knivemakers claim that their knives are hand forged and partial heat treated, some got temper lines on their blades, even for some very small blades like Perrin's street surgeon. I can understand that for big swords like traditional Japanese tanto or Chinese swords, they need a hard blade and a softer back at the same time. But I really can not understand its use for small knives. At the same time, I also cann't understand how much could hand forged blade better than the ones with latest metal science in them.
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How are forged/partial-heat-treated blades better than production ones?
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You have just touched on a topic of much debate, as far as I can tell. Some people swear by the forged blade, some say they are no better than those fully ground from bar stock. It depends, IMO, on how good at forging the smith is. Poorly forged blades wont be any better, and are probably worse, than ground blades. Stock removal blades are capable of some amazing stuff. In forged vs stock removal side by side comparisons, the forged blades have an advantage in overall performance in the tests I've read about. I would just like to point out that the people doing the forging were some of the best in the world. Head over to the testing forum or the shop talk forum and see what some of the forged and stock removal blades are capable of doing.
Regarding the soft back/hard edge question on small blades, I've wondered how much of an advantage it is in small blades myself. For purposes of myself in this discussion, I'll define small as < 4" of blade length.
Regarding the soft back/hard edge question on small blades, I've wondered how much of an advantage it is in small blades myself. For purposes of myself in this discussion, I'll define small as < 4" of blade length.
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I have devoted over 20 years exploring this question. The next three or four issues of Blade will contain thoughts and empirical imformation leading to part of of the answer. The quality of the forged blade is based upon the talent, commitment and knowledge of the bladesmith. Not all forged blades are equal for many reasons. Same for stock removal blades. Differentially hardened and etched blades are an open book to the man who can read what they describe. It all depends upon the objectives of the man who made the knife.
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In politics you have the far left and the far right. These are the most outspoken on the issues. However, they are the minority. The vast majority fall right in the middle.
It is the same with forged vs stock removal. You have those who say the only real knife is a forged knife, and you have those that say modern steels have made the stock removal knife better than forged.
Most makers are somewhere in the middle. The fact of the matter is this - All things being equal, there is no differance between the two. But we all know that things are not equal.
You take two knives of the exact same shape, the exact same steel, and the exact same heat treating and you have the exact same knives. This is reguardless of whether one was forged and one was ground. Anyone who says otherwise is only trying to sell you something.
Also remember this. All knives are ground. Every bladesmith I know of only forges to shape, meaning they hammer the steel to the ruff shape of the finished knife. And then guess what, they grind it the same as a stock removal guy. I have a blade in my shop right now that is a piece of damascus forged by Mastersmith Red StCyr. When he gave it to me it only roughly resembled a knife. It took quite a bit of grinding to bring it into shape.
They are simply two differant road to get to the same location. They both take equal amounts of skill and the masters of both are to be respected. At the moment, I only grind. But thanks to Red StCyr, Bill Herndon and Jimmy Rhodenbaugh I will soon be forging. My desire is to do both well.
It is the same with forged vs stock removal. You have those who say the only real knife is a forged knife, and you have those that say modern steels have made the stock removal knife better than forged.
Most makers are somewhere in the middle. The fact of the matter is this - All things being equal, there is no differance between the two. But we all know that things are not equal.
You take two knives of the exact same shape, the exact same steel, and the exact same heat treating and you have the exact same knives. This is reguardless of whether one was forged and one was ground. Anyone who says otherwise is only trying to sell you something.
Also remember this. All knives are ground. Every bladesmith I know of only forges to shape, meaning they hammer the steel to the ruff shape of the finished knife. And then guess what, they grind it the same as a stock removal guy. I have a blade in my shop right now that is a piece of damascus forged by Mastersmith Red StCyr. When he gave it to me it only roughly resembled a knife. It took quite a bit of grinding to bring it into shape.
They are simply two differant road to get to the same location. They both take equal amounts of skill and the masters of both are to be respected. At the moment, I only grind. But thanks to Red StCyr, Bill Herndon and Jimmy Rhodenbaugh I will soon be forging. My desire is to do both well.
Today all of the knives that I own were made by Stock Removal and they have met all of my needs.
However, I still think that there is some intangible special quality about a well made Forged Blade.
Just as my Custom Knives made by Stock Removal have a feeling that my Production knives lack, I believe that the Forged Blade has an intangible quality above and beyond the Stock Removal Blade.
However, I still think that there is some intangible special quality about a well made Forged Blade.
Just as my Custom Knives made by Stock Removal have a feeling that my Production knives lack, I believe that the Forged Blade has an intangible quality above and beyond the Stock Removal Blade.
I personally find this to be a very interesting discussion. It's a question I've wondered about for a while. Mr. Fowler, what month is the article you speak of coming out? Has any maker done any experiments w/ the same steel/shape/heat treat, possibly from the same bar of material? To eliminate as many variables as possible, I would think the two test blades should come from the same maker.
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Elwin: The discussion will begin with the next issue of Blade, will come out next month. We have done experiments with forged and stock removal blades from the same steel. I am not out to trash stock removal knives, there are some very dedicated stock removal makers who I call friend. They make good knives. Frank Richtig made knives using stock removal blades that out cut most of the knives being made today.