How are most custom knives made?

I

imp

Joined
Oct 3, 1998
Messages
206
Les,

Handling the amount of "Custom Knives" that you do, what percentage of those knives do you see laser cut and 3rd party components on? Also, do you see any amount of "custom" blades that are not actually "hand finished" but are done on a grinder?
 
Imp: Since Les hasn't had a chance to answer this one, I'll tell you what I do in my shop.
For my fixed blades, I currently have only two models that use Abrasive Waterjet cut blades: The Handiman and the QUICKENING. The Handiman has a skeletonized tang that could only be produced cost effectively using NC technology. The QUICKENING, as it is D2, is simply more cost effective to AWJ cut. If I didn't, I'd have to charge more. D2 is not the friendliest steel to profile!

My folder blades, liners and bolsters are AWJ cut, and all still require cleanup after they come into the shop. I have the equipment and ability to make all these parts myself, but, material usage and fab time would go way up.

Currently, I don't do hand rubbed finishes, mostly because I don't like the way they hold up in use, but, I don't tumble finish any components either. All the finish work is done with the knife held in my hands. that's blades, handles, whatever.

And, I have no employees, no relatives, no assistants working in my shop. I do all my own designing, fabrication and heat treatment, except for the aforementioned AWJ cutting.

I buy bushings, clips and small screws, but, all are modified by me in some way before they go into my knives.

Oh, and Tactical tools makes most of my KYDEX sheaths. I tweak them all before they leave here.

That's the skinny from Martinsite Knives!

RJ Martin
 
Excellent. I wish more makers had the interest and honesty to step up and take a few minutes to spell out this kind of information. Thank you.
 
imp,
I see a lot of 'custom' knives that have their blades finished partially on a machine. Doesn't have to be a grinder.....if you wnat a polished finish instead of a hand rubbed finish, about the only way to get there is with a buffing machine. I don't like buffers myself, so I do a combination of a base finish on the machine and hand rubbed finish after that.
I've seen this discussion a lot on the knife collector's list...just where does something stop being a custom, or a handmade knife? Does it count that the clip I put on a sheath or the screw I put in a bolster is machine made? I've just used damascus for some bolster material for the first time here, and it was only after some soul searching, since I wanted to make my own. Not having the forge and tools to do so, I settled for trading for damascus made by another knifemaker.
What if I wanted to use damascus for a blade? The way I figure, just so long as I buy it in raw, barstock form, and work it to shape myself, and not something that is already ground into a finished blade or bolster, then its still going to be a handmade knife.
I might be tempted to use a mill to cut a few parts, but since I don't own one, so much for that temptation. My biggest help has not been from anyone else actually working in my shop, but from the friends I've made among other knifemakers that share their techniques and sources from time to time to help me learn better ways to do things.

madpoet
 
Imp

You have asked a loaded question but I think that the eventual consensus is that the individual maker will use whatever equipment is available to produce the highest quality product possible for their customers.

One of the major topics of conversation at shows or whenever makers get together is new equipment that they have purchased and why.
We are not shy about using technology just the cash to purchase the equipment we feel that we need.

I know of no maker that jobs out the individual components of their knives to the point that his or her total input is to assemble the pieces.

You can rest assurred that knives made by reputable known makers are indeed handmade.


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george
 
Guys: I agree. Unless we are all going to switch over to files and hand work for everything, using machines is inevitable. What is important, to me, as far as "handmade" goes, is that I am holding the workpiece in my hands (not a jig) during the grinding and finishing operations. Of course, some operations require the use of a vise for safety reasons, or because 2 free hands are required.
Again, we need to differentiate between handmade and custom. Handmade is easier to define, as it is it's own definition. Whether I am using a machine like a grinder or a buffer, if I am holding the knife freehand, it's hand made. Of course, I MUST be the only one who touches the knife as it's being made, or it becomes bench-made. (heat treat aside, although I do that part also)
As to custom, my definition is producing a knife to a customer's specification, be it in overall design, or WRT finish/steel/handle material/blade length/grind type/etc, etc, etc.

As to the final finish, remember, even if it's hand rubbed, all the previous steps were probably done using various machines!

RJ Martin
 
Weather or not a person wants to call a knife hand made or custom. To me it is more about a matter of quality then what a person wants to call the catagory a knife would be labeled. A preson is going to buy the knife if they want it, no mater what the catagory the knife is labeled. Would a kit knife made the way a customer wanted it be a custom or a hand made, because the maker made the handles and the guard would that be hand made? Would the fact that he made it the way the cutomer wanted it made, would that make it custom? As long as the maker is doing quality work, and I would hope being honest about the knife. The customer would be happy and the knife would sell. To me, it would still be a kit knife. What do you guys think?
Chris Top of Texas knives
www.toptexknives.com

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I agree with all you guys have said, and to me it really doesn't matter to me who made it or how it was made as long as it works for me and I can use it and I like it I'll buy it. But as evidenced in the "Sebenza v. Apogee" thread in the general forum it seems not too many guys are understanding what exactly goes into making a knife. I know how knives are made but looks like there are guys who think there is a lot of difference between how that Sebenza and Apogee are being made. The only difference I see is that the guy who puts his name on the Apogee is doing the actual work on the knife while the guy who puts his name on the Sebenza isn't. Whichever knife is put together best and will hold together the best under the type of usage I put it through will be the knife I buy regardless of whether someone perceives that one knife is a better deal over the other because it's a "Joe Blow" handmade and the other is a "semi production".

Just a final question to Randy and the other makers who responded. There has been a lot written here about the Sebenza and the fact that Chris Reeve doesn't do any of the work on these anymore. So if no one else but Chris touched the Sebenza from the time the components come off the CNC till it was completely finished and assembled do we consider it a handmade?
 
From a buyer's viewpoint (I'm not a maker),
I have no objection to in-house machine assistance of any kind, or outside heat treating, lazer cutting, etc. for that matter, as long as there is no attempt to deceive.
I recently ordered a custom folder (Larry Chew) and was told at the time of order which lazer cuts were jobbed out. I appreciate this kind of honesty and the info did not change my decision to order from Larry.
I'd hate to spend the bucks on somebody's high end handmade/custom and find out later that grinders-R-us did half the work.
Fortunately, honesty seems to be a pretty common value in this area of interest.
 
i think that the true answer lies in 1) how many knives the guy makes 2) how far behind he is in his orders 3) how expensive his knives are....from what ive seen....the higher end knives tend to be the ones that have the most machine work...im not going to name any names but there are a number of very high end knifemakers who do little but polish the blade...put the pieces together, and put their name on it....
 
Tom: You have to name names- after all this is the purpose of that site - to share information between us collectors and users.

I , and certainly others, whould love to know which custom makers are those who do not put too much work into their highly prices pieces or at least which one of them do put alot of work into it..
 
Here is a general outline of how I currently make my knives

Steel is delivered to my shop in 8 ft bars.

Cut length
drill holes
Scribe pattern
Rough grind to shape
Disc sand profile
profile inner curves with 1" and 2" wheels
Grind beginning of sharpening notch
file in sharpening notch
Hand file in thumb serrations
Disc sand steel bar flat
Mark centerlines
grind to centerlines
rough flat grind
hand file in shoulders so that they match
clean up rough grinds and file marks on beltsander (free hand always
Clean up shoulders by hand with sand paper wrapped file
degrease blade
wrap blade with titanium foil
heat treat process (to many steps to list here
Clean up any areas that need it after the heattreat (steps for this vary every time)
Hand sand tops of blades to remove sharp corners
select and cut handle materials
sand materials flat on granite block
drill holes
rough grind scales
handles are then attached via epoxy and pins (many many steps to this)
handle rough shaped on grinder
Handle final shaped with files and sand paper strips
Handle hand rubbed, and all sharp edges removed
knife is then beadblasted
make kydex sheath (many steps to this
sheath form fitted to knife
sharpen knife
acid etch mark on blade

There are hundreds of steps more that I skipped over to keep mentioning here due to how boring it would make this post. This gives you a general idea though, about how my knives are made.

------------------
Lynn Griffith-Knifemaker

My website
GriffithKN@aol.com


 
Always an interesting thread.

Here is something to consider. What makes a knife a handmade knife? Literally, it would be made by hand. So unless your flintnapping (and even that uses a tool to a degree), the knife could be said by some that is not handmade.

A couple of thougts. First, if we agree that a band saw and a drill press are machines and that a lazer and CNC are machines. Is there a difference between which is used? After all they are both machines. Of course so is the surface grinder, belt sander, milling machine, grinder, etc.

So if a maker is incoprating all of these machines already, does using an advanced machine mean he is no longer a custom knife maker?

Im sure several decades ago similar arguments were made when makers moved from cutting blades out with a manual saw and using a hand held drill to make the holes. Went to using a band saw and drill press.

I feel what makes the knife a custom knife is the maker utilizing the skills they possess to do all the final work on the knife.

Guys, I have no mechanical ability. However, I can use a band saw, a grinder, a drill press. Taking some course's Im sure I could be taught to use a CNC machine and a Lazer cutter. However, I STILL CAN'T MAKE A KNIFE.

So like it or not, as the market becomes more competitive the cutting and drilling of blanks will be done more and more by computer assisted machines. Notice I used the word blank. Unlike the factories which boast a double grinder that can put out a finished blade ever X amonut of seconds. Custom makers still do them by hand, one at a time.

This is where the first delination can be drawn. Note I said custom makers still do them by hand. Not, the custom maker receives parts and then turns them over to a shop full of employee's.

This brings in a whole new category of business's. Randall, Reeve, William Henry, Lile etc. Doesnt mean it is not a quality product, just means it is not a custom knife.

Now if you take a maker who works in one of these micro-factories and makes a knife does all the finish work and puts their name on it. Then it is a custom knife. Case in point Scott Cook works for Chris Reeve, he makes custom knives that he puts his name on.
This is a custom knife.

Still I would hazard to guess that 80% of the custom knives made are still done with band saws, drill presses, etc.

The new machines provide a better blank, save the maker time (which means they can spend more time on the final fit and finsh). Also, you as the consumer receive an advantage. The knives stay affordable.

Had it not been for the new technology that exsist's today. The knife market would be a completely different place. Custom folders would start at $700, even for the tactical models. Ever try to cut out a frame of titanium by hand? Knive could not be done in batches, consequently, fewer knives would be made each year. And you think the delivery times are long now! Fourms and at least one of the knife magazines would probably not exsist, at least not in the form they are in.

What does all this mean.

1) If you only want makers who use the older type machines, then just buy from them.

2) If your definition of a custom knife is one that is made only for you. Then only buy those...note buying an exsisting knife and modifiying it would not constitute a custom knife by your definintion. As you are using a knife that already exsists. However, using the Knifemakers Guild's definition of a custom knife it would be.

3)Buy what you like.

Here is some more food for thought. What about construction techniques used by the ABS. You know the group of makers who forge knives.

Many of the top makers no longer use a hammer and anvil as their only tools to build the knives.

They now use trip hammers, hydrolic press's, lathe's, etc. These machines have done for them what laser cutting, etc. have done for the stock removal guys. Better product, less time, more knives and lower prices. 15 years ago, Damascus Bowies routinely sold for $100 and inch. 15 inch knife, $1,500, this included the tang which in many cases was just a welded on carbon steel tang.

You can now get that type of knife from ABS Journey Men Smith's for well under $1,000. For a non-rated forger the price may be $500.

Why is that? Two reasons:

1) Increased Competiton

2) Better machines.

Man has always embraced technology. Like it or not, it is here to stay. So before you condem it, learn what it can and can't do. Then if you still have doubts, contact a knife maker, and ask if you can come over and assemble one of these "kit" knives.

Once you have done that you will have a real appreciation just what being a custom knife maker is all about. Remember, the great ones always make it look easy.

Les

 
I'm all for most any fabrication method that will put a high quality knife in my hands for a fair price. However, I do see a downside to knives made in batches assembled from cookie-cutter parts, even if the final fit and finish is done by the maker's hand; lack of unique character from knife to knife. With the ability to crank out hundreds of identical parts, I think the market becomes flooded with identical knives. When a maker builds one knife at a time, each one has greater latitude for variation, which in turn could lead to subtle design refinements. If I compare ten "different" examples of a popular mid-range handmade knife made with AWJ cut parts, I feel like I'm looking at something fresh off an assembly line. Sure, the workmanship is great and the price is right, but the knives lack individual character. This is a devil's advocate observation. I'm not against the use of new manufacturing technology, I'm just concerned that it may lead to super "production-handmade" knives at the expense of unique expressions of the knifemaker's art.
 
Rick,

You bring up a valid point. A custom knife that is done over and over again will loose some of it's apeal to someone like you.

This is where the custom order comes in. You can get with the maker of your choice, design what you want and have the knife built to your specs. A true custom knife by anyone's standards. This knife will cost more and take longer to receive.

Cost is the main factor to most knife buyers.
Consequently, makers (especially those who are full time)like any other business, must respond to it's customers wants and desire's.
It takes a lot of R&D to come up with a particular style of knife. Therefore, the makers want to get the maximum (like any other business) for that one design.

Some of these become classics and others become the knife that is tough to trade or resell because the market is flooded with them.

That trend is going to change.....watch for information on the Vanguard Collection.

Les
 
I have to agree with Rick. To some degree I offered the same opinion to a similar thread here http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000504.html

Also I would argue with you Les, that the main consideration in a knife purchase is cost. Cost is certainly always an issue, as nobody I know ever had too much money. But for me personally, I make a distinction between production and custom. When I need a production knife, I know what I want, I know who makes it and I know there are at least 20 different places on the net that sell this particular knife. So I care about the cost primarily. On a custom however, I'm hoping to aquire something special, something with character, something that is made just for me (be it my own design or a modification to a maker's existing design). Now, while I don't have an unlimited budget, my main concern is to find that maker, who can in my opinion, create that perfect piece that I have in my mind.
Since we're talking about custom knives in this thread, I would argue that money is probably always a secondary concern.

My usual $0.02
smile.gif


Ingmar
 
I'll jump in and add a "me too" on batch produced components. It means little to me what tools the maker uses, as long as they are used individually, to make one knife at a time. Of course, programming CNC for a single piece would probably take almost as much time as doing it manually...
 
Every thing I have read so far agrees with my view of a hand made knife. Since I don't sell a lot of knives (I'm a part time maker) and I don't know how to operate a mill, the knives I forge are mostly one of a kind. What stock removal I do, I try to get them alike (sometimes I do) and if I could sell 20 or 30 knives a week of one style, I would definitely have them water cut. I do like to make about 3 knives of a kind at a time so that if I mess up one, I don't have to start completely over.
Ray Kirk www.tah-usa.net/raker
 
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