How are the flat grinds?

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kenny g

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Nov 22, 2015
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The 110 flat grind looks very interesting but I have never seen a Buck flat grind. The only flat grind folder that I have is a Spiderco, but it is fully serrated and I don't think it would compare to the Buck. What do you think of the flat grind Bucks? How about Vs. the hollow grind? Thanks.
 
Spyderco folders that are serrated are saber ground. Spyderco does use a flat grind on many of its knives, such as the plain edged FRN Delica. Buck is using a hollow ground blade, currently. They used to use a flat grind on the 300 series but not since they brought these knives in house.
 
I feel like something Just passed by me completely and i'll probably look stupid for asking, but where does Buck offer flat ground 110s now? Or is it a custom option?

Verstuurd vanaf mijn XT1092 met Tapatalk
 
SKBlades. The "Handsome Jack" 110 and "Lil' Jack" 112 are both flat grind. They are thick and stout compared to hollow grind blades. Copper and Clad appears to have a drop point 110 and 112 with flat grind too.
 
We should be careful to clarify our terminology in this thread as "flat grind" has 2 very different common meanings. The Camillus and Schrade made Buck slip joints have a "full flat" grind. I believe the Spyderco flat grinds are full flat, as is the Case Sodbuster, nearly all GECs, the ESEE line, the Buck Hoodlum and Selkirk and most Beckers. The Buck 110 flat grind is a sabre grind, similar to what you see on a Benchmade folder or the classic Ka-bar fighting/utility knife and most Scandinavian knives.

The Joe Talmadge FAQ on blade geometry is a good read on the subject. Using his terminology, the Buck Selkirk and Hoodlum are (full) flat grinds while the Buck 110 flat grind is a sabre grind. But, many companies like Ontario and Benchmade refer to sabre grinds as flat grinds so Buck isn't wrong. It's just something that demands clarification when talking on forums.

III. Blade Grinds

- The Hollow Grind

The hollow grind is done by taking two concave scoops out of the side of the blade. Many production companies use this grind, because it's easier to design machines to do it. But many custom makers grind this way as well. Its great advantage is that the edge is extraordinarily thin, and thin edges slice better. The disadvantage is that the thinner the edge, the weaker it is. Hollow ground edges can chip or roll over in harder use. And the hollow ground edge can't penetrate too far for food-type chopping, because the edge gets non-linearly thicker as it nears the spine.

For designs where slicing is important, but the slice doesn't need to go too deep, this grind is an excellent choice. Many hunting knives are hollow ground, because field dressing is often best done with a knife that slices exceptionally well through soft tissues. Unfortunately, if you hit a bone, you can chip the edge, so the flat grind (see below) is also used often.

Another advantage of the hollow ground knife, at least at the beginning, is ease of sharpening. Most hollow grinds thicken slightly towards the edge. That means that as you sharpen (at least at first), the blade gets thinner and easier to sharpen. After this, however, the blade begins thickening non-linearly and sharpening will become more difficult.

The ultimate push cutter, the straight razor, is usually hollow ground.

- The Chisel Grind

The chisel grind is a knife which is not ground at all on one side. So it is completely flat on one side, and has a bevel on the other. It is simple to produce (the maker need only grind one side), and simple to sharpen (it is sharpened on one side only, then the burr is stropped off the other side). It is also typically very sharp, due to the single bevel design. Whereas a blade ground on both sides might be sharpened at 20 degrees per side, for a total of 40-degrees edge angle, a chisel ground blade is often ground at around 30 degrees, making for a thin (and thus sharp) edge.

Accurate slices are very difficult with the chisel grind, due to the fact that the non-symmetrical design forces the knife to curve in the medium being cut.

- The Sabre Grind

The sabre grind is a strong edge format. The bevel starts around the middle of the blade, and proceeds flatly towards the edge. This leaves a strong edge for chopping and other hard use. But it also means the edge will be fairly thick, so this design will not necessarily slice all that well.

The sabre grind is found on many military classic designs such as the Randall #1 and the kabar.

- The Flat Grind

The flat grind endeavors to provide an edge that is both thin and strong, and leaves a strong thick spine. The grind is completely flat, going from the spine to the edge. This grind is harder to make, because a lot of steel needs to be ground away. However, the edge ends up being fairly thin and so cutting very well. Because the bevels are flat, there is plenty of metal backing the edge, so it's much stronger than a hollow grind. It is not as strong as a sabre grind, but will outcut that grind.

The edge on this design also penetrates better for slicing and chopping. The hollow grind expands non-linearly as you go up the blade, the sabre grind expands linearly but very quickly. The flat grind expands linearly and slowly. Kitchen knives are usually flat ground, because when chopping/slicing food you need to push the blade all the way through the food. This grind is an outstanding compromise between strength and cutting ability, sacrificing little for either.

- The Convex Grind

Also called the Moran grind, after Bill Moran. This grind is as you would expect, the grind arcs down in a convex curve down to the edge. This means the point can be very sharp, because there's no secondary bevels to create the edge itself, just two intersecting arcs. There is also a fair amount of steel behind the edge, because the convex arcs cause the edge to widen non-linearly. This is a strong-edge format, which won't penetrate like a flat grind but will be stronger. Knifemakers form this grind on a flat-belt grinder. A disadvantage of this grind is if you don't have a flat-belt grinder yourself, it is difficult to touch up the edge.
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Full article here: http://www.knifeart.com/bladgeomfaqb.html
 
Buck is using a hollow ground blade, currently. They used to use a flat grind on the 300 series but not since they brought these knives in house.
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- DocT

Buck brought the 301, 303, 305 and 309 "in house" in 1985 and kept the flat grind until about 1998, although the 309 may have gone to a hollow grind a couple of years before that.

Bert
 
bertl said:
- DocT

Buck brought the 301, 303, 305 and 309 "in house" in 1985 and kept the flat grind until about 1998, although the 309 may have gone to a hollow grind a couple of years before that.

Bert
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Thanks Bert! I guess I had forgotten that. It happens as I get older. So they kept the flat ground blades on those for quite a while. Those were my favorites and I am kicking myself for not bringing mine with me.
 
pinnah said:
We should be careful to clarify our terminology in this thread as "flat grind" has 2 very different common meanings. The Camillus and Schrade made Buck slip joints have a "full flat" grind. I believe the Spyderco flat grinds are full flat, as is the Case Sodbuster, nearly all GECs, the ESEE line, the Buck Hoodlum and Selkirk and most Beckers. The Buck 110 flat grind is a sabre grind, similar to what you see on a Benchmade folder or the classic Ka-bar fighting/utility knife and most Scandinavian knives.

The Joe Talmadge FAQ on blade geometry is a good read on the subject. Using his terminology, the Buck Selkirk and Hoodlum are (full) flat grinds while the Buck 110 flat grind is a sabre grind. But, many companies like Ontario and Benchmade refer to sabre grinds as flat grinds so Buck isn't wrong. It's just something that demands clarification when talking on forums.



Full article here: http://www.knifeart.com/bladgeomfaqb.html
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Thanks for that. I would prefer a full flat grind. I have a knife with a big hole in the blade, flat grind and it is pretty, um great. cuts deer sausage like a champ or most anything else.
Funny thing is I always hated the way they looked. Bought this one from the youngest boy.

My vantage pro has a shallow hollow grind and cuts anything. well almost.
 
Thanks for all that, It shows me how much I have to learn. I'm glad I asked, as cool as it sounds I don't think the flat grind is the best choice for me. Maybe I'll wait for a light weight drop point, Thanks again.
 
There are two companies that do an exceptional job with the hollow grind and Buck is one of them. The thin high hollow grind cuts best, as long as what is being cut is not deeper than the knife. The FFG is the best over all cutter, in my experience.
 
DocT, I agree on both points.

The slicing ability of a Buck hollow grind can be improved dramatically by scrubbing down the shoulder of the hollow on a stone. This mimics a FFG above the shoulder. Noticeable on things like potatoes
 
I've very convinced the full flat grind is not the best cutter. It is a good cutter and strong blade. The full hollow grind is the best cutter / slicer. Merely, looking at a edge profile (cross section) of the two would show it. I've carried both for years and tried them out many times. Much discussion about blade strength but I've never tested either in a manner to cause it to fail. But the grind profile would tell me a well executed full flat grind is likely stronger. Still, a moot point. DM
 
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Here's a cross section on some of the current blade grind offerings. A= full flat grind, B= Bucks semi hollow grind, the type grind found on military knives of the 40-70's C= Bucks current flat grind, D= Bucks current hollow grind, E= a full hollow grind (mostly found on custom knives), F= a convex grind and G= the grind found on Bucks sabatier kitchen knife (flat with a hollow grind the last 1/2". Should you reduce the bevel shoulder on the B grind it could easily get close to a scandi grind. DM


 
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This is why I found 'E' to cut the best cutter/slicer. With apples, cheese, skinning, ect.. Then G a very nice cutter for kitchen use and D, then A. Two grinds I did not draw were the chisel and saber grinds. The later used on Morseth knives and the chisel I see used on tanto blades, popular today. DM
 
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We all have different experiences and I appreciate them. From my experience, E is the best cutter, unless the material being cut is deeper than the knife is tall from edge to spine. Then, it tends to bind a tad and push the material out from the blade. Slicing an apple very thinly produces broken or cracked slices, for example. However skinning or processing meat is where E shines. A slices things like apples and potatoes best and that is why you find this grind on thin best quality kitchen knives. You can actually see the cause of these phenomena in the drawings. Another example is that my Spyderco Caly3 will out slice my Buck 110, or any other Buck I currently have, when it comes to such things. However, cutting rope, hose, and etc. the high hollow grind is slightly better due to the thinness of the knife blade down to the edge.
 
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