How "custom" is it if its already made, really?

[ultrafine]

OK here we have an Elishewitz, this is probably the maker that got me into real nice looking high quality knives in the first place, you know got me interested in really nice stuff. and i have nothing bad to say about him or his knives, iu still think some of his older designs are the best looking knives ever made. EVER.

These knives are listed as "available pieces" now how custom is that really? These are more like limited production knives.

What is a custom knife really??

In my mind a custom knife this:

I deciede the blade length
I deciede what material are to be used all over
I deciede what blade material is to be used
I deciede the heat treatment or at least final hardness
I deciede the look of the knife
I deciede the blade shape
I deciede the clips material and position or if it should be multiple position
basically I deciede everything about everything, this is what custom means to me at least, the maker gets to put his touch on it to show that he made it, and is clearly visible.

To me a truly custom maker does not have a signature, at least not on his custom blades, on his production blades; well thats another thing, thats to get people interested in the first place.

Is this a custom knife?

I say its not, it looks just the same as 10000 other sebenzas, its a finely machined production knife thats it. whan you get the sebenza with the warthog blade then its a custom.

What is custom to you?

 

[KennyB]

Yeah, I see custom as being pretty much your own specifications. However, there are a lot of products that you can choose different configurations of to better suit you that people often refer to as "semi-custom".

 

[Lasse Eskildsen]

I agree that a custom knife is one you decide.
I prefere to refer to knifes made by a single maker and not in a factory as HANDMADE instead, if he choose how its made himself and then sell it, eventhough its unique.
Like I bought a new pair of leather gloves yesterday on ebay which was handmade, and I liked how they looked but I didnt decide how they looked so they arent custom to my specifications.

 

[Tony8179]

Well, your first example is called the Cerberus and it's not a custom knife, nor was it ever marketed as a custom knife by either maker. It is a Mid-Tech collaboration between Allen Elishewitz and Les George.

Custom makers that have an authorized distributor will make a batch of custom knives and sell them to the dealer. The dealer sells the individual knives. While they are not custom to the point that it was made to your exact standards, they are still custom knives.

Sebenzas have never been known or referred to as custom knives. Sebenzas are high end production knives.

 

[KennyB]

Well, your first example is called the Cerberus and it's not a custom knife, nor was it ever marketed as a custom knife by either maker. It is a Mid-Tech collaboration between Allen Elishewitz and Les George.

Custom makers that have an authorized distributor will make a batch of custom knives and sell them to the dealer. The dealer sells the individual knives. While they are not custom to the point that it was made to your exact standards, they are still custom knives.

Sebenzas have never been known or referred to as custom knives. Sebenzas are high end production knives.

That seems more along the lines of specialties than customs, much like companies market products as "exclusives" or "limited editions".

I think what would be interesting is if a particular maker was impressed with a customer's specifications and then produced a few of them and marketed them as custom. How could one really say they're not "custom" knives even though they're not made specifically for the person buying them at that time?

In any case, I liken it to guitars. I can buy a guitar from ESP tomorrow and get my choice of bridge, tuning pegs, hardware for the knobs, and color even. However, I have to select such things from a list. On the other hand, I could also fill out an order sheet specifying every little thing about the guitar from the length of the neck, the style of the neck, to even giving them drawings and/or images of a style of body to be made. Now that is "custom", anything else is more or less just tailor fitted.

 

[unit]

Custom means that you extract raw materials from the earth with your bare hands and with those materials you make tools that you use with other raw materials to make your knife. Anything short of that is not entirely custom and has aspects owing to someone else's work.

This topic comes up once in a while. The answer is in the eye of the beholder...you can go to an extreme like I presented, or live in the gray area between that extreme and common production pieces...at the end of the day, you should use the knife you like and find happiness in that.

Peace!

 

[Tony8179]

That seems more along the lines of specialties than customs, much like companies market products as "exclusives" or "limited editions".

I think what would be interesting is if a particular maker was impressed with a customer's specifications and then produced a few of them and marketed them as custom. How could one really say they're not "custom" knives even though they're not made specifically for the person buying them at that time?

In any case, I liken it to guitars. I can buy a guitar from ESP tomorrow and get my choice of bridge, tuning pegs, hardware for the knobs, and color even. However, I have to select such things from a list. On the other hand, I could also fill out an order sheet specifying every little thing about the guitar from the length of the neck, the style of the neck, to even giving them drawings and/or images of a style of body to be made. Now that is "custom", anything else is more or less just tailor fitted.

I'm afraid I disagree. While I admit that I see the logic in your satetement, we have to remember that we are not dealing with any type of product other than a knife. I know that most people want to make comparisons to other products such as cars, guns, watches, or even guitars. Knives are different than all these other products.

When I think custom knife, I think hand made. While some custom makers will still make a knife to your exact specifications, you usually still have to choose from certain predetermined factors. The shape of the blade may stay the same, but it could be larger or smaller. The shape of the handle may stay the same, but again could be larger or smaller. Most custom makers have certain materials that they work with unless you decide to collect the materials you want and ship them to the maker. Blade steel, handle material, liner material, bolster material, inlay material, etc are usually in stock already so that the maker can make a knife at any time. You may be able to choose from a few different materials, but you do have limits in your choices. You're never going to find a maker that has every type of material in stock. You're also going to have a hard time finding a maker that will create any type of design you want. The design you may want may be an impossible one to create. To be able to create whatever you want the maker has to have a ridiculous amount of materials as well as a ridiculous amount of machining and tooling equipment.

You also have to keep in mind that a full time maker needs to eat. He could be inundated with orders for 6 months and then all of a sudden the orders dry up. By creating a popular pattern and then producing some custom knives in that pattern with some different blade, handle, or inlay materials the maker can sell them to a dealer all while still taking any custom orders that come in. That doesn't make the knives that he sold to the dealer any less custom. Everything was still handmade. The blades were still ground by hand. It may not be to your specifics, but it is still a custom as it wasn't pumped out by the hundreds on a factory assembly line.

Take Strider for example. You can get a custom knife made how you want it, but it's still going to have that same Strider handle (maybe anodized, maybe an exotic handle material, maybe carved and decorated?), it's still going to have a very Stideresque blade with an opening hole and two "thumbstud" stop pins (maybe a Nightmare or Trisula grind?), and it's still going to made from materials that Mick Strider has in stock (unless you supply your own material).

 

[John Smith V]

I understand what the OP is trying to say. I think it's just a matter of the whole knife industry misusing the term 'custom'.

In knifespeak, a custom knife doesn't always mean a knife is customized for the customer the way a 'bespoke' suit is made to measure. Generally, a custom knife just means 'non-production'.

 

[balisong kid]

decide not deciede

 

[wyattT]

seems like a debate for the sake of debate. but i will add one thing, there is nothing unique about knives that distinguishes them from cars, guns ect as tony suggested.

what are these mythical qualities of a simple cutting tool?

 

[Tony8179]

seems like a debate for the sake of debate. but i will add one thing, there is nothing unique about knives that distinguishes them from cars, guns ect as tony suggested.

what are these mythical qualities of a simple cutting tool?

Let me be more clear. My opinion is that comparing knives to cars, guns, watches, motorcycles, boats, guitars, or women is like comparing an apple to a smoldering hot coal. Yeah, that's a weird comparison right? To me you can compare one knife to another, you can compare one gun to another, you can compare one car to another, and you can even compare one fruit to another (that's why I didn't compare apples and oranges). It's just my opinion and some would probably disagree. It could just be that I'm really passionate about my chosen hobby and that comparing a knife to a guitar, or a car, or a gun just doesn't make sense in my head.

 

[tjsulli790]

In my mind a custom knife this:

I deciede the blade length
I deciede what material are to be used all over
I deciede what blade material is to be used
I deciede the heat treatment or at least final hardness
I deciede the look of the knife
I deciede the blade shape
I deciede the clips material and position or if it should be multiple position
basically I deciede everything about everything, this is what custom means to me at least, the maker gets to put his touch on it to show that he made it, and is clearly visible.

First off, it's decide not deciede. Second off, very few knifemakers will ever allow you to make these many decisions. What makes a knifemaker unique is their style, they don't want their name attached to something you designed. It could end up hurting their reputation. If this is what a "custom" is to you, then you're going to need to be the maker as well.

By the way, both knives you pictured are mid-techs, they've never been marketed or listed as customs.

 

[tanrichguy]

First off, it's decide not deciede. Second off, very few knifemakers will ever allow you to make these many decisions. What makes a knifemaker unique is their style, they don't want their name attached to something you designed. It could end up hurting their reputation. If this is what a "custom" is to you, then you're going to need to be the maker as well.

By the way, both knives you pictured are mid-techs, they've never been marketed or listed as customs.

First off, its "make THIS many decisions".

To me a custom knife is one that is made by hand and is a one-of-one.

 

[KennyB]

Let me be more clear. My opinion is that comparing knives to cars, guns, watches, motorcycles, boats, guitars, or women is like comparing an apple to a smoldering hot coal. Yeah, that's a weird comparison right? To me you can compare one knife to another, you can compare one gun to another, you can compare one car to another, and you can even compare one fruit to another (that's why I didn't compare apples and oranges). It's just my opinion and some would probably disagree. It could just be that I'm really passionate about my chosen hobby and that comparing a knife to a guitar, or a car, or a gun just doesn't make sense in my head.

Knives, cars, guns, watches, suits, golf clubs, and bunch of other stuff I can't think of have a few things in common. First of all, they're items that people want, they often want them to be personalized, they often pay more for them that some would pay for "lower quality" versions of the same item, they're all often marketed or spoken of as being "custom", there's connoisseurs/collectors for them, etc. Comparing an apple to a hot smoldering coal stops at the similarity that they are both somewhat round "things".

I'm not going to avoid the analogies because it just makes it that much simpler to convey an idea. So as far as your parameters go, that's pretty well understood to me. The thing is that when someone orders a custom guitar, car, golf club, or whatever they generally don't expect to be able to specify the exact materials and might have to choose between some options, but there is still a larger choice than what I've seen some people consider custom from certain knife makers.

So to try to avoid the analogies just a little, if a knife maker like BRKT offers a model of their knives in any number of knife scales, I don't consider that very custom. If they offer the same knife in any one of the steels they have available I would.

At the end of the day I still consider these types of things to be more or less special orders than custom pieces. To call a knife "custom" when you don't have a choice in a very large number of the specifications kind of demeans knives that are custom to the extent of being made off of a drawing, to the users's materials specifications, to their dimensions, etc.

In other words, if I order a $500 dollar Sebenza with whatever customizable things they have available, I still won't see it as custom in the same way as if I commissioned a knife maker to make me some ( just for example ) some 18" bowie with a blade matching a drawing that might cost $3000. Sure you can call the Sebenza "custom" because it's personal, but then what do you call the knife that was 100% designed by the user and built to specification?

Anyway, I think getting too hung up on the semantics of things is unnecessary, and John Smith V had a pretty simple explanation of it. If I was going to differentiate between the two knives in my example, I would simply call the Sebenza a "custom" or a "high-end" and the bowie a "fully custom". Because often--sorry to go back to the analogies--I've heard that same distinction made for watches, necklaces, cars, etc.

 

[ultrafine]

The way I see it hand made and cutom seems to be the same as some have pointed out, but in all seriousness there is nothing hand made about that knife. I have programmed CNC-machines for many years and and one of the reasons I started doing that was to be able to make my own stuff.

The knife pictured in the first post is not hand made its either laser cut or water jet´ed or machined with a really really thin tool (probably not). Ok the blade might be hand ground, it probably is but the inlays or the cuttiong of the lock?? Give me a break, not even I could cut that profile of the lock manually. And I can do some serious stuff with just manual machines.

Actually I think only the blade is ground manually the rest is CNC´d in one way or another, and I am a firm believer that this actually increase the level of quality by several 100% I´m just saying that its not handmade, I actually prefer CNC´d stuff since the machines don´t have bad days or forget things, nor cut corners, so its all good to me.

Maybe the example was a bad one since it turned out that this knife was infact not labeled as a "Custom" but still you ge the point.

I may have unrealistic expectations of what custom really means in this business, and thats why I educated myself to be able to make all this myself to the highest possible quality, to my own standards.

Yeah I know its not very often you get to choose everything yourself, a lot of stuff is like this, but considering a knife is so small, and it goes so fast to program and machine, even if you program this directly in the machine, which you don´t do for complex profiles anyway. I guess I wanted the option to get to decide everything myself, since I know how it works.

Custom = a little more special than mass produced off the shelf products.

 

[_habit_]

First off, its "make THIS many decisions".

To me a custom knife is one that is made by hand and is a one-of-one.

I believe it may in fact be "make THAT many decisions"

Of course, grammar is not really a science, so I suppose it could swing either way. Spelling is more governed though. - My point being, just be glad you won't spell it deciede anymore, hopefully.

 

[ChapmanPreferred]

Yu r al corect bye yur own definition/criterion/spelling. It is okay if your opinions are not univursallly heald. Bad spellers of the whirl'd untie!

Sorry, I could not resist.

I suppose I am not that picky when it comes to defining a "custom" knife. I am happy to support the greater knife industry: custom (undefined), mid-tech, and production.

 

[Tony8179]

Knives, cars, guns, watches, suits, golf clubs, and bunch of other stuff I can't think of have a few things in common. First of all, they're items that people want, they often want them to be personalized, they often pay more for them that some would pay for "lower quality" versions of the same item, they're all often marketed or spoken of as being "custom", there's connoisseurs/collectors for them, etc. Comparing an apple to a hot smoldering coal stops at the similarity that they are both somewhat round "things".

I'm not going to avoid the analogies because it just makes it that much simpler to convey an idea. So as far as your parameters go, that's pretty well understood to me. The thing is that when someone orders a custom guitar, car, golf club, or whatever they generally don't expect to be able to specify the exact materials and might have to choose between some options, but there is still a larger choice than what I've seen some people consider custom from certain knife makers.

So to try to avoid the analogies just a little, if a knife maker like BRKT offers a model of their knives in any number of knife scales, I don't consider that very custom. If they offer the same knife in any one of the steels they have available I would.

At the end of the day I still consider these types of things to be more or less special orders than custom pieces. To call a knife "custom" when you don't have a choice in a very large number of the specifications kind of demeans knives that are custom to the extent of being made off of a drawing, to the users's materials specifications, to their dimensions, etc.

In other words, if I order a $500 dollar Sebenza with whatever customizable things they have available, I still won't see it as custom in the same way as if I commissioned a knife maker to make me some ( just for example ) some 18" bowie with a blade matching a drawing that might cost $3000. Sure you can call the Sebenza "custom" because it's personal, but then what do you call the knife that was 100% designed by the user and built to specification?

Anyway, I think getting too hung up on the semantics of things is unnecessary, and John Smith V had a pretty simple explanation of it. If I was going to differentiate between the two knives in my example, I would simply call the Sebenza a "custom" or a "high-end" and the bowie a "fully custom". Because often--sorry to go back to the analogies--I've heard that same distinction made for watches, necklaces, cars, etc.

I guess we'll just call this a case of agreeing to disagree.

I guess I wanted the option to get to decide everything myself, since I know how it works.

Custom = a little more special than mass produced off the shelf products.

Just because you know how something works doesn't mean that it's an easy process or something you can even do yourself. If you start making customs, please let me know as I too would like something made to my exact specifications.

Your last analogy is a little shortsighted and is kind of a slap to the face of custom makers.

 

[CrialJLA]

Who cares, it seems to be more of a figure of speech than anything..

 

[hardheart]

Custom is very much misused. Since we have many production knives that are available in different steels, differnt handle colors/materials, different edges, different finishes, even different sizes with mini/large/extra large etc versions, there aren't a lot of spots left for calling a knife a 'custom' if you it see on a maker's site a few times a year in a few different variations and can buy it off the 'available' page with no input of your own.

Being handmade also isn't a factor imo, because trying to determine what constitutes 'handmade' is just going to lead to the same argument. Also, some extremely cheap knives are manufactured with hand tools at almost every step, and in great quantity by comparison. By the same token, fit & finish aren't criteria, because some of the best F&F comes with the heavy use of precision power tools, electronics, and computer controls - all very common stuff in production.

Being single author doesn't do it either, as far as I can tell. I've seen plenty of unique pieces where one guy makes the steel/blade, one does the handle, another some scrim/engraving, and another makes the sheath. Heat treat may be done separately as well, and usually is.

One part of being 'custom' is being made for something specific. A specific task, a specific person, a specific order. But then, if that specific task is done by thousands of people, and they all order the same tool, that isn't custom. If a specific order is for a couple dozen knives, that isn't very custom. I mean, if it's for a few hundred, like short runs for Moteng or Knifeworks, we don't call those customs at all.

If it's for a specific person, then that is pretty custom, right? But how custom is it if the choices were all done through drop down menus, and the same list has been generated several times before by other customers? Is that so different from a smaller group of customers ordering the BM with a combo edge instead of plain, in S30V instead of 154CM, with black coating instead of stonewash finish, in the full sized version instead of the mini?

I don't know what makes a custom knife, but it appears to me that certain combinations of the number of people involved, the originator of the design, the types of tools used, the amount of hand finishing, and the number of similar knives made don't have much to do with it. Which is weird.