How custom maker reacts to popularity

Joss

Joss

Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
7,353
All,

Have you noticed how makers seem to react differently to their increase in popularity? Some makers increase their prices (which is something I respect entirely, BTW - nothing like good ol' capitalism), sometimes to many times the price of a similar knife of similar quality made by someone else, while others don't and just start accumulating orders and end up with a 3+ year waiting list.

Also, don't you find it surprising how a maker will be able to quote a price for a knife with a delivery 3 years from now? I mean, do they take into account inflation & the fact that some materials might be more expensive (ivory isn't going to become more available over time)? Plus, their going rate should (one hopes) increase over those 3 years, so they're effectively underpricing themselves. Or do they quote the price which they would charge *now* for such a knife? How do most makers take the time value of money into account?
 
You make a very good point. How can a maker have a backlog of 3 years or more. It is unfair to the consumer to have to wait that long. Is is it worth the wait? I think up to a year backlog is sufficient enough to stop taking orders, maybe a little longer. If you think about it the wait will probally end up being more like 2 years. The maker has to try to fill his orders and keep his customers happy. He also has to make knives for shows so people don't forget who he is and take more orders there. Sounds like it is a vicious circle.

I think that quoting the price for a knife 3 years from now is just that, a quote. It is not etched in stone and no contract was signed. A maker and a buyer shoulf be aware that his prices will eventually go up. Materials get more expensive, and the maker hopes that as he makes more knives his skills get better and his name gets more recgonized that his knives will appreciate. It's all part of the game.

The best thing a maker can do is continue to make good knives and make each knife better for the same amount of money. It will be a better knife for the consumer both mechanically and economically. He will sell a lot more knives that way.
 
Originally posted by striper28
You make a very good point. How can a maker have a backlog of 3 years or more. It is unfair to the consumer to have to wait that long.
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Just for the record - I don't think it's unfair. It's just hard to manage (or it seems to be) for the maker. My point was that if it was my case, I would probably try to raise my prices or upgrade my range (i.e., drop knives that are small, cheap, and not too challenging).


I think that quoting the price for a knife 3 years from now is just that, a quote. It is not etched in stone and no contract was signed. A maker and a buyer shoulf be aware that his prices will eventually go up. Materials get more expensive, and the maker hopes that as he makes more knives his skills get better and his name gets more recgonized that his knives will appreciate. It's all part of the game.
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That makes sense. I was wondering about that. I think that if I was a customer to whom a price has been quoted early on, I'd be a bit upset to see this price increase (outside of material costs.)
 
When you raise your prices or stop making cheaper knives you then narrow your customer range. You either have knives that are more expensive that less people can afford, and you have more expensive knives, which take longer to make so you make less knives. Or you make cheaper knives which sell faster and your quality goes down. Vicious circle again. If you are a full time maker it is hard to make expensive knives with more time, better materials and more money invested in than a cheap one. Say you make a knife in the $400-500 range. There are lots of guys who make knives in this range and lots of people who can afford them. Then there are a handful of guys who make in the $1000-2000 range. There are a smaller number of buyers who can afford a knife at that price. It is easier to "sit" on a cheaper knife because you eventually know it will sell than to "sit " on an expensive one. As an example Arron Fredericks used to make $2000 folders and now makes cheaper gents knives with stainless blades, damasascus bolsters and carbon fiber handles. He is appealing to a broader audience, but will his reputation suffer? Maybe.

When I go to a show I have a variety of price ranging knives, that way I can appeal to a variety of budget minded buyers. If I only have high end knives everyone walks by and says nice work but I can't afford that or wouldn't want to use it. The knives then just sit on the table and you waste money and time, of which you could be using to make more knives.
 
I would guess his point in that situation is that he WANTS to narrow his customer range, as customer range he has now is too wide, it's putting him too far behind, and there are more customers than he can make knives. It's another one of those supply and demand things which can be a tricky point
 
I'm new to custom knives and am glad that long-time knife buyers are making posts like this. As for quoting a price and then having the maker later worrying about material prices going up, whose side are you on. Ha Ha. I personally don't see a custom knife costing more than $350 unless it has rare materials or is a "true" one of a kind designed for a customer. I have many "knife material" catalogs and know that materials are CHEAP!! At least I think so. And the long wait lists will definitely keep me from buying many knives. Just my bright new shiny .02 cents.
 
Originally posted by papadops
I'm new to custom knives and am glad that long-time knife buyers are making posts like this. As for quoting a price and then having the maker later worrying about material prices going up, whose side are you on. Ha Ha. I personally don't see a custom knife costing more than $350 unless it has rare materials or is a "true" one of a kind designed for a customer. I have many "knife material" catalogs and know that materials are CHEAP!! At least I think so. And the long wait lists will definitely keep me from buying many knives. Just my bright new shiny .02 cents.
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$350 is a very low price for a custom knife, depending on what you want (of course, it's not so cheap if you like simple skeleton neck knives...) My question isn't "why are custom knives so expensive", but more, "why is it that some makers will choose to have a very long backlog rather than raise their prices".

Case in point, recently a well known maker had a $850 spear point bowie for sale. It was snapped quickly, and the buyer could turn around and resell it for a mark-up anywhere from 20% to 100% immediately.
 
When I ask for a quote on a knife I expect that the price i am being quoted is the price I will pay when the knife is ready to be shipped. If it is going to be three years then I expect the maker to take that into consideration when he/she does the quote. If that knife is $500.00 now, tell me it will be $550.00 or $575.00. It is easy enough for me to understand why the price will be more in three years than it is now, I'm not stupid.

By papadops

I personally don't see a custom knife costing more than $350 unless it has rare materials or is a "true" one of a kind designed for a customer. I have many "knife material" catalogs and know that materials are CHEAP!!
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In a $350.00 custom knife you would be correct in assuming that the cost of materials would not be that high, but in some customs the cost of materials is very high indeed. I have seen mosaic damascus that costs $100.00 or more an inch. Top quality blue mammoth scales can run $250.00 to $300.00. Some high end steels cost five to ten times as much as steels such as 440C. Titanium liners aren't cheap. Another reason that custom knives can cost way more than $350.00 is that a great deal of time is put into the workmanship of the knife. Some knives can be made in a few hours, some take a few days and some can take a couple of weeks. You will also pay more for a knife from a popular, well known maker of high quality knives; as it should be.

Joss, sorry for taking this thread in a direction in which it was not intended to go.

I think a makers prices should increase when his/her product has improved enough to warrant an increase. If the maker increases prices without increasing quality I think it is a guarantied recipe for disaster. I do not think that increasing prices to reduce the volume of orders being received is a very good long term plan. It can come back to bite you in the butt.

What I think a maker should do is to stop taking orders when he/she has gotten more than a year and a half to two years behind. At that point the makers should only make knives for shows and to catch up with backorders. That's the way I think it should be done, I am sure that others disagree.
 
Cost of materials being low is only one portion of the mix. I am not a knife maker, but I make custom signs of all types and in all materials. I can make a few calls as a result.

A general example: I can go to the hardware store and pick up a $1.95 package of springs and rubber washers to stop a sink from leaking.

Well, hire a plumber to do the same thing and what do you think you will be charged? You got the plumber's skill and time, overhead, insurance and back office staff helping with the billing and bookkeeping, all legitimate business expenses. Then, there's profit. So the cumulative hourly rate is high by most people's pocketbooks, but that's what they get.

I am sure knifemaker's don't work in the backwoods somewhere rent free. They have expenses that must be accounted for in the safe operation of the shop and the running of the business.
 
Keith, you make a good point about makers using materials for "fancy" folders such as damascus and mammoth scales, but for the "run of the mill" tacticals. example: .073 titanium 14"x1.750=$4, .079 titanium 11 7/8"x6 3/4=$17.50, .129 titanium 5 3/4"x5 3/16=$9, any G10 scales=$1.50-$2.50 per pair, carbon fiber 12"x12=$33,steels= S30V and stellite seem to be the only pricey ones. One could make quite a few knives with said materials. Yet makers do have great skills, skills that lead to better quality and faster making times. So I do feel that popularity does play a big role in price. And i do understand supply and demand, so I think that if someone wants a knife,they would pay a higher price to get one. But to also have to wait (forever)?? I definitely wouldn't do it. O.K. I've added .04 cents this time.
 
Though I think that makers should probably not get backordered more than a couple of years, I am prepared to wait as long as it takes to get a particular knife that I want. If I am given a projected delivery date of four years and I really want the knife, then I am going to put in the order and wait.

The thing that drives me crazy are the makers that have a knife that I want to order and they have stopped taking orders period. That means that it is unlikely that I will ever get the knife that I want from this maker. :grumpy:

There I go, off on another tangent again.
 
When a friend of mine was 17 he wrote a letter to Bill Moran and asked him to make him a knife. My friend is now 40 and can't afford one of Bill's knives nor does he ever think that his name will come up to be able to buy one. 23yrs is a long time to wait!
 
Another thing to consider when you're putting that long of a wait on an order is whether or not you'll actually be able to follow up on it. If you are truly backordered so far tht yhou won't even start on a knife until three years from now, can you guarantee that it'll happen at all? Let me make it clear that I am NOT pointing fingers at anyone here, as I don't know of anyone who's had problems this way, but heck, I'm not even sure where I'm going to be living three months from now(graduate in may, and hoping to get a job in the area and stay around here, but don't know), so how could I say I'll be able to finish a knife in three yeras? Obviously, not everyone is in that kind of position, but personally, while I'll make plans for myself much farther ahead than three yeras, at least for now, I won't make any plans that far ahead that involve someone else's money and their opinions of my work and of custom knifemaking community in general. Fact of the matter is, currently I am not taking any custom orders, with one possible exception for a VERY good friend who knows from the start that I will make no promises on delivery date.

Again, not pointing any fingers, or saying anyone has made mistakes this way, but it's something to think about.
 
Whoa. Imagine a guy dies and then his heirs grow up and then a notice comes by mail or email - " your so-and-so knife by a given maker, ordered fifteen years ago, is now ready - please pay the $4,000.00 balance due on this knife for immediate shipment."

:)
 
I know several makers who've taken that path - i.e., they don't accept orders anymore. I think it is also something many makers - at least of art knives - look forward to, as it means that they can produce whatever they want, and be reasonably sure to sell the stuff at its normal current price from an Available page or a mailing list.
 
I have a quick question about back logs. If I order a custom folder from a popular knife maker and I am told it will be about 24 months till delivery. Do I wait 24 months and just hope I get the call or e-mail??? Or do a touch base with the maker every few months?? I imagine knifemakers get pretty sick of e-mails asking if there knife is being made yet.
 
Interesting thread!!

I don't understand the long backlogs myself. I'm a one man operation, no help, no secretary! Once I can no longer provide an accurate or reasonable delivery date, I stop accepting work. If I had full time office help, I'm sure I could plan things better. My hat's off to those that can take deposits, keep paperwork and deliver promised knives more than a year off ;)

Besides the paperwork aspect, I like to stay creative and develop new designs. I get burned out making the same knives over and over again. I don't want to take orders two years out on a knife that I don't feel like making anymore. Most of my customers know that when I release a new design.....USUALLY another one gets DROPPED:D


Neil
 
If you have been on a waiting list for some time it never hurts to touch base with the maker, probably the call will be appreciated and if he has made a knife on an order that is cancelled you may consider accepting a knife that is available.

I would bet that if the gentleman who has been on Bill Moran's waiting list for 23 years had contacted him every few years he would now have a knife. Orders can get lost.

It is very hard to tell someone who wants a knife you won't make it. There is no rhyme or reason to waiting lists, they get out of control and a maker just does the best he can.
 
From my perspective I have quit taking custom orders only because I don't feel it's fair to the customer to wait on a knife. For an investment grade blade it makes sense to a point and the blade should be worth more when you get it than what the original quoted price is.

If people like my style of blade and they get a good value there will always be someone interested in buying one when it's finished.
I have seen and heard on many occasions Makers get in trouble because they have 1-2yrs worth of orders...People get tired of waiting...or they loose interest in that style blade. Then the orders get cancelled or worse yet they make the knife and the customer just dissapears for whatever reason. At that point the Maker needs to worry about his reputation because that is what maintains and hopefully increases the value of their work.
Maker still has everyday bills to pay along with a reputation to maintain (Quality---Price point) and suddenly the income is gone.

A definite Catch22 at times.
You need to be Fast and Good or you don't eat!
 
A waiting list really discourages me from ordering a custom from that particular maker. I know in most if not all cases, its well worth the wait. But I am one of those folks that’s into instant gratification. If the maker has over a 6 week waiting list, I will look elsewhere. I may miss out allot on some great blades, but I guess I will have to wait till that maker is caught up or look for there work on the secondary market. I know that Mr. Hawkins and Striper28 do some OUTSTANDING work and you can still frequently see some of there stuff for sale on the forums. Now if I can just scrap up some extra cash I will be set.:)
 
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