How do custom makers handle payment for customer designed knives?

E

Ethan_Hardy

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Sep 10, 2011
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I have a guy I am working with currently. He has a specific knife he wants me to make for him. He wants it in S30V so they steel costs a good bit. How do you all of you handle payment? Is payment before the knife is finished common for materials etc? Is this advised?
 
I have found most custom knifemakers to want payment when the knife is completed.
Some require a 50% deposit when starting on the knife with the balance due upon completion.
If the client has requested an obscure design, uncommon or very expensive materials, or a knife the maker does not feel he could easily sell to another, they will sometimes require full payment for the knife or payment for materials in advance.
 
Ethan, I personally don't like to take any payment up front. I just don't like being in debt to a customer before I have their purchase ready for them. There would normally be a certain amount of trust before a deal was made.

It's acceptable practice, however to require a deposit if the customer wants something so personal, or specific that it makes the knife difficult to sell to another buyer if the original customer backs out of the deal. It may also be reasonable to ask a customer to make a deposit if the knife is to include extremely expensive materials such as precious metals or gems. I would not consider the piece of steel to be used in the knife blade an unusual cost though. I would not do business with a plumber for instance, who required me to provide my own pipe and valves. It wouldn't seem professional to not have on hand at least the basic raw materials of your trade.
I hope this makes sense.

Adam.
 
DesRosiers said:
Ethan, I personally don't like to take any payment up front. I just don't like being in debt to a customer before I have their purchase ready for them. There would normally be a certain amount of trust before a deal was made.

It's acceptable practice, however to require a deposit if the customer wants something so personal, or specific that it makes the knife difficult to sell to another buyer if the original customer backs out of the deal. It may also be reasonable to ask a customer to make a deposit if the knife is to include extremely expensive materials such as precious metals or gems. I would not consider the piece of steel to be used in the knife blade an unusual cost though. I would not do business with a plumber for instance, who required me to provide my own pipe and valves. It wouldn't seem professional to not have on hand at least the basic raw materials of your trade.
I hope this makes sense.



Adam.

The only time ill accept money up front is if the materials are outrageously high. Like high end Damascus or zirco-ti,moku-ti,timascus and its usually only for half the cost of materials. Excellent advice given here
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With very few exceptions, I provide payment in advance only to cover the cost of expensive materials - like a piece of ivory that could run several hundred dollars, or gold wire inlay. I would not put blade steel in that category.

I agree with Adam that if the knife being ordered is some curious vision of the cutomer's idea of a Klingon ceremonial castration knife - i.e. - something likely unsaleable to anyone but that customer - then a substantial deposit may be adviseable. But first ask whether you want to put your name to such a piece.

In my experience, deposits generally cause more problems than they solve.
 
RogerP said:
In my experience, deposits generally cause more problems than they solve.
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They are certainly very tricky, and usually not worth the trouble. I will say, thankfully, that I have never had a client (deposit or not) back out of a custom order or leave me stuck with materials I wouldn't normally keep on hand anyway. So I think the notion of the maker getting burned is a pretty small risk.

To play devil's advocate though, there's a big difference between accepting a commission from a well-known collector who's been around for years if not decades, and accepting one from somebody you only know through the forums or a couple emails or private messages - especially if the design is well outside what you normally make, or involves a lot of expensive steel, or will take the same amount of time and labor as 3 or 4 "normal" knives you know you can sell. In that case, I reserve the right to ask for a deposit to cover special materials/processes only... although I rarely do (in fact I have not asked for a deposit in a couple years.)
 
One thing that a deposit accomplishes (of any amount) is to obligate the customer for payment. Special orders are just that...an item specifically designed for an individual. Having the customer give you a deposit obligates the customer to complete the transaction.

I have been doing special order jewelry work for 30 years. A $100.00 deposit (non-refundable) is required to get me started. Without the deposit, I found I was losing a lot of time and having to sell pieces to the general public that were designed according to one person's ideas, not my designs. Extra efforts that I am NOT paid for...I don't like it. ...Teddy
 
As a collector, I have no problem with a reasonable desposit on a custom order. I often supply mammoth ivory, pearl, wood, or other special materials for the maker to use. I have never paid up front for metal, but probably could be persuaded to do so under the right circumstances.

I did ONE deal where the maker wanted full payment up front. It was a very bad experience, as the maker shined me on for many months after the promised due date, and then eventually ignored my e-mails, all the while still taking new orders from others and communicating with new customers (requesting up front payment from them, too). As you might imagine, when someone gives you a load of money for something that is supposed to be delivered in 4 months, well after a year passes and you haven't delivered the product and you stop communicating with them (while you still have all of their money), but continue to take new orders from others, well then that someone might get a bit pissed off after a while. Anyway, I will never do that again.
 
Adam is correct in stating that normally, by the time the order is finally figured out, there has been a degree of trust between maker and customer.
That said, during the deal making process, I often tell my customers - a little jokingly - that if they send me any money before I start on their knife, their name goes to the bottom of the list! ;)
 
Haha thanks for the responses. I know that the materials he is asking for is not 'premium' relative to what is on the forums but to someone who is a year into knife making and used to working in 1095. I'm a college student working on a college student budget lol. What I will probably do is ask for a non-refundable deposit to cover the material costs. He is the husband of a family friend so not your random guy. I think asking for a material deposit for his custom order would be best. His design (my design with his intended purpose and specifications in mind) isn't my style not but not unappealing, that being said if he backed out I would probably turn around and attempt to sell it instead of keeping it instead of adding it to my collection. Thanks for the responses everyone.
 
Goldsmithy said:
One thing that a deposit accomplishes (of any amount) is to obligate the customer for payment. Special orders are just that...an item specifically designed for an individual. Having the customer give you a deposit obligates the customer to complete the transaction.
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Yes - but does it not also create a corresponding obligation on the maker to deliver on time? You have now taken money on a promise to deliver on a certain date. What happens in the event that you don't?

In my experience, delivery dates greater than one year are at best optimistic guesstimates. That's not an issue for me, as I generally just ask for a 30-day heads-up. A maker telling me my knife will be ready one month from today is generally a lot more of an accurate prediction than a maker telling me it will be ready 16 months from today. The high variability of delivery times isn't generally a concern for me - but that dynamic changes a bit if the maker is holding my money.

Every train wreck knifemaker story I have heard of has one common theme: the maker has failed to deliver on knives for which he has received partial or full payment. Now, sometimes life happens and the maker, through no fault of his own, is simply unable to complete the orders. That unfortunate situation is made significantly worse if the maker not only owes knives, but owes money.

I have made it this far with prepayment of any kind being by far the exception to the rule. I expect I'll make it the rest of the way on the same basis.
 
thats right on how i do it
Kevin Jones said:
I have found most custom knifemakers to want payment when the knife is completed.
Some require a 50% deposit when starting on the knife with the balance due upon completion.
If the client has requested an obscure design, uncommon or very expensive materials, or a knife the maker does not feel he could easily sell to another, they will sometimes require full payment for the knife or payment for materials in advance.
Click to expand...
 
I personally don't like deposits on orders, but lately because of 2 different customers I am considering it. I understand that unexpected things can happen when an order is a few to several months from delivery that can cause order cancelations, but when a maker contacts the customer and asks if they want to continue with the order just a few days before he starts it and the client says yes only to ignore the maker after the piece is completed a few weeks later, its pretty aggravating. I depend on trust and people being honest with me as I am honest with them, but unfortunately some people aren't this way, so a deposit would be a good way to protect the maker and if the customer is sincere, I don't think they'd mine a reasonable deposit.
Ethan, its a judgement call, but I think good business practise might be to collect deposits, I know they could become a pain but its your business and if you don't protect yourself, your liable to be working for nothing.
 
^ Bill, it wouldn't take many experiences like that to make me start requiring deposits.
A shabby way to treat someone.
 
Hi, I hope that I'm not intruding on this thread.....I am the customer that James Terrio is speaking of, and I am totally fine with a deposit. I am also a small business owner and have been stiffed on work just as many of you have. Many times the cost of recovering lost funds is greater than the original amount. I WANT a maker to protect themselves, this is your job and lively hood, and For me and many others it is just a hobby, protect yourselves accordingly.

Good luck and much success to you all,

Nathan
 
I didn't mean to call you out, Nathan, but thank you for your input and support. If that new idea wasn't 2 feet long, a deposit wouldn't even have crossed my mind :)
 
As a general rule, I believe it's best to decline a order that I wouldnt want
to repeat.
 
As a collector I have no trouble with a non-refundable modest deposit, say 100-200$. However I always ask for a timeline from the maker, I don't think that's too unrealistic.

If you do take a deposit though don't be like one of my custom orders and decide without telling me that 500$ is a more appropriate deposit than the 200$ we talked about on the phone. And then take over two years to get it done instead of the 6 months quoted.
 
the golden rule is golden for a reason.
 
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