How Do Different # of Layers Look?

[St33L]

If you have two or more steel alloys, and folded the billets layer after layer, how does, say, 1 thousand, 1 million, 1 billion, 1 trillion, etc. layers look?

After 9 folds, you'll have over 1 thousand layers; after 19 folds, you'll have a little over 1 million layers; etc.

I can see how 1 thousand and 1 million layers appearing very much like how pattern welded Damascus knives look.

But, if you continued to forge, and folded the layers, wouldn't the patterns continue to appear more and more subtle?

In fact, would you be able to make it appear more and more like the "tighter" or smaller patterns seen on Wootz steel?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Rich S]

As you know the number of layers is determined (approx.) by 2 exp n (where n is the number of folds). Most Japanese swords used between 8-10 folds, some of the top smiths used 12-15. The more folds/layers, the more difficult it is to see them. Most modern commercial (India, Pakistan, etc) are only 37 to approx 160-ish layers. Many blades from top Japanese smiths of early to late Edo are termed mugi-hada (no visible grain) due to the high number of folds. A million folds would look like a bar of solid steel I believe. Of course it would take tons of steel to make even a small blade due to the loss of material with each additional fold. Wootz as you know is not a mechanically folded steel.

Rich

The Japanese Sword Index
http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htm

 

[St33L]

As you know the number of layers is determined (approx.) by 2 exp n (where n is the number of folds). Most Japanese swords used between 8-10 folds, some of the top smiths used 12-15. The more folds/layers, the more difficult it is to see them. Most modern commercial (India, Pakistan, etc) are only 37 to approx 160-ish layers. Many blades from top Japanese smiths of early to late Edo are termed mugi-hada (no visible grain) due to the high number of folds. A million folds would look like a bar of solid steel I believe. Of course it would take tons of steel to make even a small blade due to the loss of material with each additional fold. Wootz as you know is not a mechanically folded steel.

Rich

The Japanese Sword Index
http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htm

Thanks for the comprehensive info. Yes, wootz is not a mechanically folded steel, and I'm interested in small/tight grain patterns like on Wootz steel. It would essentially be a very tightly grained, pattern-welded Damascus - most modern Damascus patterns are "wide" in comparison. So, it sounds like around 10 folds or so or about 2,000 layers is when patterns get small (?). Is there a pictorial that anyone has done comparing the grains at increasing numbers of folds? I took a look at the link of Japanese swords, and I'm unsure where to find that info, except for maybe under a couple of the center sub-headed links. Also, this is similar to the Japanese Mokume-gane laminate works, though the examples I've seen are similar to the grain width or much wider than what's seen on pattern-welded Damascus.

 

[Scurvy092]

Phil Patton did a 25,000 layer knife and couldn't really get the pattern to show up.

 

[St33L]

Phil Patton did a 25,000 layer knife and couldn't really get the pattern to show up.

Hmmmm... I wonder if making some Mokume-gane with 11-ish folds will get the fine grain size I'm looking for.

That's what it sounds like from your response and the response from Rich S.

 

[Rich S]

Here's a good webpage that shows actual pictures of the different types of jihada (grain patterns) in Japanese swords. Of course there is no way to know how many folds the smith actually used in forging the blade.

http://meiboku.info/guide/form/hada/index.htm

Of course many (most) modern, commercial damascus is layered with nickel to give that bright/dark appearance to the steel. That was never done with Japanese swords.

Rich