How do I remove chips in the microbevel (Endura 4)?

J

jcw122

Joined
Jul 28, 2009
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37
Hi everyone,

Just got my new Sharpmaker today after researching sharpening systems. My Endura 4 has been somewhat dull towards the tip of the blade, with noticeable chips in the microbevel. What is the technique for removing these chips? Do I want to work at 40* since that is the microbevel's angle, or do I need to work with the secondary bevel at 30*? Just trying to understand the proper thought-process and technique. Thanks.

-JCW
 
I'm nowhere near an expert, but it would make sense to sharpen the chips out at the 40* angle. If you sharpen at 30* you will have to grind the the edge off until you have no more microbevel (and no more chips).
 
simioh said:
I'm nowhere near an expert, but it would make sense to sharpen the chips out at the 40* angle. If you sharpen at 30* you will have to grind the the edge off until you have no more microbevel (and no more chips).
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OK, that's what I was thinking too. And it's actually what I've been doing so far, it's taken a pretty significant amount of strokes but I'm getting there It's just very slow so I want to make sure I'm doing it right. Then again, I guess the medium sticks aren't known to be fast.
 
No, you start with the primary bevel then re-work the micro bevel.

By going straight to the micro you are only making the bevel wider and the cutting edge thicker.

If its the factory edge then you may have more issues because I could bet money its not micro beveled and its not 30 inclusive. They just don't do that at the factory.
 
knifenut1013 said:
No, you start with the primary bevel then re-work the micro bevel.

By going straight to the micro you are only making the bevel wider and the cutting edge thicker.

If its the factory edge then you may have more issues because I could bet money its not micro beveled and its not 30 inclusive. They just don't do that at the factory.
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Thanks for the info, I'll switch up the technique.

It's a factory edge. And it is microbeveled. Not sure what the stock bevels are for sure.....so what if they are different? Start from 30 then use the 40?
 
Factory uses a 120 grit belt and a buffing wheel, if it does have a micro it was not done on purpose.

The best thing to do with a factory edge is re-grind it. Gotta set a good basic bevel shape to work off of, factory edges are not good examples to do this.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Factory uses a 120 grit belt and a buffing wheel, if it does have a micro it was not done on purpose.

The best thing to do with a factory edge is re-grind it. Gotta set a good basic bevel shape to work off of, factory edges are not good examples to do this.
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OK great...been doing a bunch of passes on the 40" medium...taking a while to really get anywhere. But I'll be sure to report back.

I guess the microbevel I was seeing maybe wasn't real...untrained eyes?
 
jcw122 said:
OK great...been doing a bunch of passes on the 40" medium...taking a while to really get anywhere. But I'll be sure to report back.

I guess the microbevel I was seeing maybe wasn't real...untrained eyes?
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Some 'microbevels' are just accidents of sloppy sharpening. In other words, it might've been done at the factory (likely was), though not intentionally. More likely as a result of bad angle control or perhaps not fully apexing in the first place. It happens a LOT on factory blades, and especially near the tips. I've actually come to view a fully apexed tip as a pretty rare thing from the factory. They look especially horrid under stronger magnification, oftentimes.

As knifenut1013 mentioned, it's better to just re-grind a new, clean and symmetrical bevel into the edge, fully apexed from heel to tip. Maintenance and touch-ups get a whole lot easier, once that's done.

(Edited to add):
I neglected to add, a coarser abrasive would definitely help you out, in re-grinding the bevels on the blade. Could be as simple as wrapping some coarse wet/dry sandpaper around the Sharpmaker's rods. Something around 220-400 grit would work pretty fast.


David
 
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What Spyderco calls a medium (tan) stone, most people would call fine. Norton makes 1/2" equilateral triangular prisms in several grits and materials. These stones will shorten your work day. I have a set of medium India and a set of coarse India stones for my Sharpmaker.
If your tip is dull, spend a little extra time on the tip before reprofiling the whole edge.
 
Thanks for the help guys.

I picked up some of those cheap diamond hones at Harbor Freight....180/260/360. Using them layed against the ceramic sticks. Even with the 180 it seems to progress pretty slowly...the nicks are getting smaller but pretty slowly. Didn't realize it would take this long jeez. Now wonder people love belt sanders...but I skipped that option for a reason.

My only other question so far....if I grab some sandpaper, do I definitely need diamond or would another material also work?
 
jcw122 said:
Thanks for the help guys.

I picked up some of those cheap diamond hones at Harbor Freight....180/260/360. Using them layed against the ceramic sticks. Even with the 180 it seems to progress pretty slowly...the nicks are getting smaller but pretty slowly. Didn't realize it would take this long jeez. Now wonder people love belt sanders...but I skipped that option for a reason.

My only other question so far....if I grab some sandpaper, do I definitely need diamond or would another material also work?
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For the Endura's VG-10 (I'm assuming this), you don't need diamond; it's not so wear-resistant as to need diamond, like S30V or similar steels. More often than not lately, I'm either re-touching or re-bevelling most of my knives (including VG-10) on wet/dry SiC sandpaper over glass (I've been using the same piece of 320 grit for a few weeks now).

Part of what's going to slow things down a bit for you is, the contact area for sharpening is pretty small on the SM's rods. Re-bevelling and other heavy grinding jobs will always be quicker on a larger abrasive surface. This is why I like using the sandpaper. I use it in a 'stropping' fashion (edge-trailing) on a fairly large piece of a 9" x 11" sheet. I usually use it full-length, maybe trimmed to 1/2 or 1/3 of a sheet in width. The long sweep of the blade edge over a sizeable span of abrasive takes metal off much, much faster than on a surface that's limited to 1/2" x 6" or so, like the SM rods. This is obviously the advantage in using larger bench stones as well.


David
 
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I made an extra large "Sharpmaker" out of 1/2"X 2 1/2" Aluminum bar stock. The angles of the jig can be adjusted to 1/10th of a degree with turnbuckles and a digital clinometer. The stones that I use on the jig are usually 1/2X 2 1/2 X 11 1/2. As mentioned above, the larger stones are much faster than the Sharpmaker stones.
 
Well, I managed to finish removing the chips, and reset the bevel to 40* inclusive. The sharpie trick was definitely helpful too. Even with the diamond hone it still took a significant amount of time, like 2 hours.

Now my issue is that I have the bevel set, but I can't seem to get the curved front portion of the blade sharp enough to cut paper reliably. The rear-half of the blade cuts paper fairly reliable after using the Medium sticks. What is that a sign of? What did I do wrong as far as consistency?
 
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jcw122 said:
Well, I managed to finish removing the chips, and reset the bevel to 40* inclusive. The sharpie trick was definitely helpful too. Even with the diamond hone it still took a significant amount of time, like 2 hours.

Now my issue is that I have the bevel set, but I can't seem to get the curved front portion of the blade sharp enough to cut paper reliably. The rear-half of the blade cuts paper fairly reliable after using the Medium sticks. What is that a sign of? What did I do wrong as far as consistency?
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Either the edge isn't fully apexed, or there's a burr or wire edge on it. With VG-10 being sharpened on ceramics, burrs & wires are quite possible. Inspecting the edge under magnification & very bright light should reveal what's going on.


David
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Either the edge isn't fully apexed, or there's a burr or wire edge on it. With VG-10 being sharpened on ceramics, burrs & wires are quite possible. Inspecting the edge under magnification & very bright light should reveal what's going on.


David
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Thanks Dave, I'm reading more about sharpening and realizing that the Sharpmaker's instructions are probably inadequate for what I'm doing. I'm going to try going back to the diamond hone, working up a burr on one side and proceeding from there. I've been inspecting my edge under magnification and haven't seen a burr currently, so I'm wondering if perhaps I haven't honed down the edges properly.
 
jcw122 said:
Thanks Dave, I'm reading more about sharpening and realizing that the Sharpmaker's instructions are probably inadequate for what I'm doing. I'm going to try going back to the diamond hone, working up a burr on one side and proceeding from there. I've been inspecting my edge under magnification and haven't seen a burr currently, so I'm wondering if perhaps I haven't honed down the edges properly.
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For what it's worth, it's very, very common for most people to stop a little short of full apex when still trying to get a feel for sharpening. I really believe it's the most common roadblock to making an edge truly sharp. I still do it sometimes, and have to keep reminding myself to press on, and VG-10 can require some patience. Nice thing about achieving a clean apex is, you'll immediately be aware of it, in how much better the cutting becomes. To get it as clean as possible, and also minimize the burrs & wires, pressure used should get much, much lighter as you get closer to the apex. Pressure is what will create the burrs, the thinner the edge becomes.


David
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
For what it's worth, it's very, very common for most people to stop a little short of full apex when still trying to get a feel for sharpening. I really believe it's the most common roadblock to making an edge truly sharp. I still do it sometimes, and have to keep reminding myself to press on, and VG-10 can require some patience. Nice thing about achieving a clean apex is, you'll immediately be aware of it, in how much better the cutting becomes. To get it as clean as possible, and also minimize the burrs & wires, pressure used should get much, much lighter as you get closer to the apex. Pressure is what will create the burrs, the thinner the edge becomes.


David
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So I guess my question is, why do some people recommend working up a burr on one side first, then sharpening the other side, if a burr is not desireable? Is it just nessesary for the initial apexing process?

Ah nvm, found the the "What is sharpening a knife about" sticky...looks to have a lot of answers to my problems. Thanks for the help David.
 
jcw122 said:
So I guess my question is, why do some people recommend working up a burr on one side first, then sharpening the other side, if a burr is not desireable? Is it just nessesary for the initial apexing process?
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It's not that a burr isn't desireable; it's the best indicator the edge has been apexed. It's that it's always better to approach it very slowly, so as to minimize how big it gets when it's created. Easier to clean them up when they're smaller. :)


David
 
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I'm glad you created this thread. Even though I've read the sticky thread on sharpening, I've picked up some good info here.

On a side note, when I get chips on an edge I don't grind away until I get rid of them, I just keep using and sharpening the knife as needed until they're eventually gone.
 
Thanks for the extra info David!

simioh said:
I'm glad you created this thread. Even though I've read the sticky thread on sharpening, I've picked up some good info here.

On a side note, when I get chips on an edge I don't grind away until I get rid of them, I just keep using and sharpening the knife as needed until they're eventually gone.
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That's a good way to think about it. I figured I wanted to clear away the whole factory bevel anyway, but once I finish creating this bevel I'll take that advice! I'd assume you'd reduce the amount of metal your removing over time too. Thanks.
 
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