How do we feel about pistol caliber carbines?

[Shoki]

I'm guilty of acquiring guns purely for the 'cool' factor on occasion but I also really like good-ol-fashioned practicality in range guns. Shooting pistols makes up a big portion of my range time with 9mm and .45 holding the lion's share of my attention purely for the abundance and relative low-cost of ammo. 7.62 is cheap enough but an afternoon with just my AK leaves me with a bruised shoulder and a tired left arm. What I'm looking for is something to bridge the gap between the two; something that retains the satisfaction of shouldering the weapon, has a barrel long enough to do a little more than just get on paper at 100 yards, and shares ammo with at least 1 of my handguns. I'm also looking for something compact, collapsible, or folding since I already bring at least 2 rifles with me most times I go shooting and don't want to add another large gun case.
I've been looking at the KelTec Sub-2000, albeit skeptically. I own 2 KelTec handguns at the moment, a P11 and a P3AT, and I'm satisfied with both but have not tried any of their rifles. Polymer seems fine for handguns but gives anything larger a hokey and delicate look. The Sub-2000 sort of makes me feel like something could go terribly wrong and I'd leave the range one day with a $400 piece of broken plastic. Take a look at this picture and tell me if you'd be confident in the strength of the hinge and solidity of the lock-up where the barrel folds:

Next up for consideration is the KelTec CMR-30. While calling .22 WMR a pistol caliber is a big stretch, I have been wanting a small revolver chambered for it for a long time. It's based on the PMR-30 and not available to purchase yet, though it should ship soon. It doesn't quite fit my criteria because I don't own a .22 WMR handgun (yet) but ammo is relatively cheap and easy to find. I like that this offering has a collapsible stock, many of the upper parts are aluminum instead of polymer, and an optic can be left on it since the stock collapses instead of folding like the Sub-2000. What I don't like is the unreliable nature of .22 rimfire ammunition in auto-loading guns. I know premium ammo would be more reliable but it's a little tougher to find at brick and mortar stores around here and the cost is approaching that of cheap 9mm that goes bang every time. I've also seen mixed opinions on the PMR-30 including many cases of parts failure and general malfunctions (many of which go back to the nature of cheap .22 in a semi-auto). Also, the magazines are proprietary and polymer. I use polymer mags in my AK and SKS but I like good old fashioned steel and it would be nice to have the option to buy another handgun that shares not only ammo but also magazines with whatever carbine I end up with (other than buying a PMR-30, of course).

I feel like I have to mention the Hi-Point carbine. I honestly don't want one of these for a number of reasons. It's hideous, uses proprietary mags, weighs almost as much as my AK, isn't very compact and its a Hi-Point. Still, it's available in 3 different calibers, easy to obtain, and is dirt-ass cheap. Also, people I know who own them and seem otherwise perfectly sane/have good taste say they are reliable and fun to shoot. A tan pain-job also makes it a little easier on the eyes:

There's more offerings I'm considering but I need to go grocery shopping at the moment. To be continued.

 

[cricketdave]

The Keltac sub2k's work pretty good nice to have a common mag with a pistol too. Not particularly refined but they do work pretty well. You could always build an Ar in whatever caliber floats your boat too, several lowers available now that use Glock mags too.

edited to add 22 info
if you already have an Ar you can always buy a 22 conversion and the same for most common pistols too.

 

[Shoki]

The Keltac sub2k's work pretty good nice to have a common mag with a pistol too. Not particularly refined but they do work pretty well. You could always build an Ar in whatever caliber floats your boat too, several lowers available now that use Glock mags too.

edited to add 22 info
if you already have an Ar you can always buy a 22 conversion and the same for most common pistols too.

I'm not really a fan of AR platforms. I've fired a few of various build qualities ranging from cheap Colts to expensive customs and they just aren't my cup of tea. Maybe I'll change my mind at some point but an AR isn't on the list for potential PCC candidates.

The next interesting option is a HERA CPE carbine conversion for 1911s. It would definitely be a project and a little sticky when it comes to NFA stuff but it's an idea. Basically, this system mounts to your 1911 replacing the grips and turns it into a Star Wars blaster. The basic kit does not turn the 1911 into a short-barreled rifle since it does not come with a stock but the rear is threaded to accept a buffer tube and I believe just having a tube and stock in the same room constitutes "constructive intent". However, a buffer tube and a Sig SB15 pistol brace installed wouldn't make it an SBR. Add a longer to the mix and it could be a capable and compact .45 carbine. The obvious downsides are having to partially disassemble my 1911 every time I wanted to switch from carbine to pistol, the total cost of all the parts, poor optic-barrel alignment and the likelihood that the ATF will change it's mind about the Sig brace.

 

[cricketdave]

I would personally much rather have the Kel-tec than one of the various housing that turn your pistol into a carbine with all the various hoops to jump through. The ar is just a suggestion i've gotten so much training and time shooting them its all muscle memory. I'd love to have one in 10mm to go with my Glock. Really though for the most part I'd much rather shoot a rifle round in the carbine, you said you like your Ak have you tried one in 5.45 there is no recoil at all and its a good round. Now put that it a draco mini pistol and add a sig brace and yeah baby thats fun lol.

 

[Shoki]

I would personally much rather have the Kel-tec than one of the various housing that turn your pistol into a carbine with all the various hoops to jump through. The ar is just a suggestion i've gotten so much training and time shooting them its all muscle memory. I'd love to have one in 10mm to go with my Glock. Really though for the most part I'd much rather shoot a rifle round in the carbine, you said you like your Ak have you tried one in 5.45 there is no recoil at all and its a good round. Now put that it a draco mini pistol and add a sig brace and yeah baby thats fun lol.

I've been wanting a Draco with a brace anyway but I think I'd want to stay with 7.62. I know it's overkill for a pistol but there's the whole sharing magazines and ammo thing that I'm so fond of.

 

[cricketdave]

Yeah I understand all of mine are 7.62 as well, I've gotten to play with a buddies that is 5.45 though and it was pretty sweet.

 

[Shoki]

Then there's this little number:

It's just begging for a Sig brace, takes Glock mags, and has caliber-swapping kits available...

 

[Charlie_K]

I don't have any experience with pistol caliber carbines outside of ones in .22 rimfire. But I really don't see anything wrong with the platform and idea behind it, so long as it's used within reason. As long as you don't expect increased ballistics out of the barrel, you should be fine.

 

[cricketdave]

Well you actually do get increased ballistics with the longer barrel you pick up some Fps. The little one Blais posted reminds me of a mac11 I had years ago, fun but worthless at much of anything. Using Glock mags is an improvement though absolutely like the ability to switch calibers and it needs a sig brace. I've enjoyed being able to swap to 9mm from 40 or 357sig out of my Glock22 and from 45 to 10mm in my Glock21.

 

[Charlie_K]

Well you actually do get increased ballistics with the longer barrel you pick up some Fps. The little one Blais posted reminds me of a mac11 I had years ago, fun but worthless at much of anything. Using Glock mags is an improvement though absolutely like the ability to switch calibers and it needs a sig brace. I've enjoyed being able to swap to 9mm from 40 or 357sig out of my Glock22 and from 45 to 10mm in my Glock21.

In some cases that's true, primarily if you're dealing with a cartridge loaded with a slower burning powder. If I remember correctly -and it's been some time since I've done the research- this is generally seen in cartridges that have traditionally been chambered for revolvers, or otherwise home brews. With pistol calibers chambers for semi-autos, they're generally constructed with quick burning powders in mind for shorter barrels, and the increase in FPS isn't as significant as you would have with magnum rounds.

 

[cricketdave]

When I've shot across my chrono i've had common differences in 9mm from pistol to carbine of just under 200fps increase with the carbine. Very similar results in 40cal. There was less difference with the 45 but still an increase. Those were with factory ammo mostly winchester white box. Now with rounds like 357 or 44 mag I only shoot hand loads in those and they are tailored for the specific pistol or rifle and for exactly what I'm using it for. Loads from a 6inch Ruger 44mag and a Marlin 1894 44 mag showed a bit more spread in speed.

 

[G8R8U2]

I like the Kel-Tec sub2k; I'll be picking one up in .40 S&W... I like that it'll take Glock hi-cap mags.

I just bought a 10/22 takedown carbine with 25 and 50 round banana mags, as well as a Saiga/Izhmash IZ132 (7.62x39) 10 days before the ban was announced; so once I pick up the sub2k I'm done in the carbine segment.

 

[Naro]

I've been pleased with my Keltec Sub2000 since I bought it shortly after they became available. I find no sign of weak or potentially failing construction EXCEPT the plastic front sight blade. That will surely eventually break, and for no apparent reason: has done so on 3 weapons I know of. They'll replace it for free (they send 2-3 extras.. which says they know it is a problem) or you can replace it with a piece of steel or aluminum cut using the blade as a template.

Although there are aftermarket customizations out there, I just use the weapon as it comes (but with a pair of Glock 9mm 30round mags. This weapon lives in a little briefcase, ready to rock and roll. The only negative that I would mention is that I doubt you'll easily find a KelTec Sub2000 at the $400 price.

 

[Charlie_K]

I just bought a 10/22 takedown carbine with 25 and 50 round banana mags, as well as a Saiga/Izhmash IZ132 (7.62x39) 10 days before the ban was announced; so once I pick up the sub2k I'm done in the carbine segment.

Good luck finding any .22 rimfire ammo for it. I sure can't.

I sure hope you didn't get the hot lips magazines. Those things are generally worthless in terms of reliability.

 

[M67]

I ordered my MPX right after the NRA show in Indy, still excited for it. CZ announcing the Scorpion for US civilian sales (as a pistol, SBR would rock) makes me excited too.

I like the Sub 2k for it's foldability, but to me, a pistol carbine really needs to be a SBR. Something about a super small SBR in 9mm or 357 Sig just makes me warm and fuzzy

 

[cricketdave]

Yeah one of my friends has a SBR AR in 9mm with a big suppressor, one of the quietest guns I've ever shot. Even the bolt barley makes noise.

 

[Bo T]

A friend has the sub2000 and speaks highly of it. If you want to carry just one load (cartridge) then it is a good idea. The carbine will provide a better platform for hunting and the pistol a more wieldy platform in case you need it in a hurry. Before the advent of modern optics it may have been a better idea. Most would have been able to shoot a carbine with its longer sight radius much more accurately than a pistol. The 20% or greater increase in energy from the carbine gives one a better chance of bringing down game. However, if you don't mind using 2 cartridges then a dedicated rifle/carbine shooting a rifle cartridge (IMO) is a better idea. I'm excluding the use of (essentially) rifle cartridges (500 S&W, 460 S&W, 454 Casill, and etc.) in the pistol, which I consider a different can of worms.

 

[Brules1]

I've talked to many gunshop owners that swear the HiPoint pistols and carbines are good. I've never owned one, but never heard a bad thing about them, except they are ugly.
My vote would be for the Kel Tec.

 

[kaotikross]

The high points I have handled are ugly, heavy, and reliable as heck. A strange combination, i know. Too bad they don't still make the Calico. It came in .22 LR or 9mm, and the mag held 100 rounds.

 

[M67]

I've talked to many gunshop owners that swear the HiPoint pistols and carbines are good. I've never owned one, but never heard a bad thing about them, except they are ugly.

I don't sell them but I have a customer that swears by his 3.

I just can't bring myself to trust one. I know what I like, I know the levels of fit and finish I like.....and a Hi Point carbine just isn't it, no where close