How do we know without testing?

Rick Baum

Rick Baum

Joined
Mar 14, 2000
Messages
509
I'm just wondering... Get's me into trouble sometimes.

I spent a lot of time making my first forged blade. Thanks to a lot of you here on the forum I had a real good recipe for my first blade and it turned out great considering I knew nothing firsthand prior to starting. Excellent quality steel (5160) from a John Deere tractor. All forging done below critical. Total of 9 normalizing cycles during and post forging. Triple everything heat treat. Tempered at 330 degrees in my oven first time around and dropped the temp 5 to 10 degrees with each subsiquent treatment. Poor man's cryo treatment (dry ice and kerosene) for about 30 hrs. or so between the second and third tempering cycles. Etched the blade to reveal the temper line. When I finally got her finished the edge flexed beautifully over a brass rod and she holds an edge despite a lot of 1/2" manila rope being cut. After my third sharpening she chopped through a vintage (1943) 2 X 8 made 55 cuts through 1/2" rope and still shaved hair. I'm pretty proud to say the least. The one test that is missing is the 90 degree flex. I'm saving that for the next 10 or 15 blades. All will be tested to total destruction until I am confident that each successive knife's performance is repeatable and reliable. After all is said and done I will know without a doubt just exactly what my knives will be able to withstand before failure.

How do all of you assure your customers of the quality of your work? Is there a way for the customer to know what kind of quality is behind our blades, or do they just have to take our word on it? If I remember correctly, I believe that Jerry Shipman had his doubts prior to maxing his "Bill Burke" knife. I'm sure his doubts have been permanently put aside after his ordeal. There has to be a better way than what Jerry went through.

Rick
 
Rick,

I did exactly what you are doing. I made my first knife and it worked ok but not up to my expectations. so I made tested and destroyed blades for the next year all the while improving each blade made. this persistence along with a few phone calls to some old cowboy in Wyoming led me to a pretty good blade. All this was done with 5160 steel from used load shafts. Then came one of the greatest dayS in my life. I was invited (well I might have invited myself) to the Willow Bow ranch in south central Wyoming. After returning from the first of many visits to Ed's shop and the instruction that I received there, I was ready to face the world. I made some knives and sold them and bought a power hammer and some 52100 steel. Then came a whole lot more testing, all the while working closely with Ed via telephone and visits to his shop. My first knife show in Eugene was not what most would call a success but I didn't let that slow me down. I sold the knives I was making for what ever people would pay me for them and kept making and testing. I had some small victories and some colosal failures. I reapeted most of the tests that Ed lined out in his book, I had to prove to myself that he was right or wrong and then discussed my results with him. Working together We have easily doubled the performance that had been achieved before. We still get together and bend some steel now and then and discuss how we might improve the knives that we are making. We talk of what is good enough and have deceided that we can never reach that goal.

I am going to the Willow Bow soon to do the performance test for the ABS and am worried that I may fail. While deep down inside I know that every knife that I make is easily capable of passing these tests I also know that I am only human and subject to all the flaws and failures associated with being human and I am not about to start thinking that I nolonger need to quit testing my knives. Over confidence in ones own ability can become the biggest failure in ones life.

My point to this ramble is that until you destroy the blade you never really know how far it will go before it fails.
 
Bill, Thanks for the post. I was starting to think that nobody had anything to say about the subject. Good luck with your testing. I'm sure you will do just fine!

I have been told that the etch will tell a person a lot about the quality of the blade. But, being new to etching and home heat treating I really don't have any idea what I'm looking at. I etched my blade and revealed the temper line. I can see a grain structure which looks like some of it is elongated (along the length of the blade) some areas look finer than others, there are round spots where it looks like I hit it with the hammer and it exploded into fine grain while the surrounding grain is a little bit more coarse. This is all while looking at it with the naked eye. Do I need to magnify it to really see what's going on? I don't really see a big difference between the hardened portion and the softer back??? Is there a tutorial or a thread that will explain exactly what I'm looking at or what I'm supposed to be looking for? Is there a difference between what the etched blade will look like from one steel to the next? Would the general buying public have any idea what's going on with the steel? Does anyone have some good pic's that they can post to help me see what's good or bad?

Thanks,
Rick
 
I basically went the same road that Bill took. I've often wondered about some makers who ask me..... "Why do you destroy all those blades?!" Just because something about Bladesmithing is written in a book, or relayed verbally, doesn't make it so. Everyone has different circumstances and conditions in their shops, therefore experimenting is the only way to be sure. Personally I've always had problems with sending something out to be heat treated.....I have no idea what has happened to a blade between the time it leaves my mailbox, and returns. Call me weird, but if I'm gona put my name on it, I had better be sure it's the best it can be, and the only way I can ensure that is to do it myself, based on the endless experimenting.
Eventhough I've been doing this for almost 20 years now, I still pick a random blade every now and then and destroy it, just as a quality control measure.
As for assuring the customer.....well, that is based on building a good reputation, and then not letting down for anybody or anything! A good reputation is one of the most difficult things to build in the knife world, and one of the easiest things to loose. Keeping that in mind will hold you on the straight and narrow path of performance/quality.
 
Originally posted by Ed Caffrey
Even though I've been doing this for almost 20 years now, I still pick a random blade every now and then and destroy it, just as a quality control measure
Click to expand...

now THIS is exactly the kind of dedication we all love to see in knifemakers
u da man, ed
 
There are some new destruction testing videos up on the angelsword website.

Daniel
 
Ed, Thanks for the post. I couldn't agree with you and Bill more about testing, testing and testing followed by more experimenting and testing. This will definitely help along the way to a good reputation.

My question now is... before you guys test a knife to destruction, do you etch it first, and if so, what will it tell you. So far it's a kind of mysical thing for me kinda like reading tea leaves or something. I know it can tell me a lot but how do you "read" the etch? What are you looking for? What should I be looking for? What is considered good and bad?

BTW Ed, Welcome back and thanks for all of your sacrifices for all of us!

Rick
 
Way to go Rick: And those who have responded.

1)It all starts with selection of steel:
Get something that provides reliable results. Your choice of load control shafts is an excellent source of 5150. Highly specked, processed right and already had a lot of learning and quality control in its history.

2) Forge at low temp, plenty of thermal cycles and flash normalizing and complete normalizing cycles during the work down.

3) Harden with the right oil and good procedure.

4) Temper at the lowest temp that will provide a hard blade that won't chip.

5) Test every blade. Edge flex is the way to test for tough, cut is the way to test for cut or appropirate hardness.

6) Etch every blade. This may seem a vast unknown frontier, but as you flex blades to destruction you will come to know what the etch tells you. No blade smith can know the exact nature of his blade unless he etches and reads the etch correctly. This is the only non destructive test we have available in our shops now.

It takes a lot of knowledgable practice to develop your skills. In the archives of this form you will find a lot of good information, the best source is your already proved quest for great blades.

When I was using 3" ball bearings I had to break one blade out of each ball to know where I was. It seemed like a tremendous waste but I learned a lot in enforcing my standard of quality control. Did I ever make a blade that would break if pushed to the limit? Possibly, but I did eveything I could to prevent it. This is my greatest fear, that some day someone may be in a jackpot and loose because of my knife. All we can do is our best, it takes time to develop best, this is both the joy and the monkey on our back.

When my new shop is completed, there will be a place for photographing every blade. I will be able to photograph test blades showing faults before and after destructive tests. I will share these in articles and a new book that will be written sometime in the future. These photos will provide some insight to those who want to know, but they will be specific to my steel and methods to a certain degree. I can spot faults in heat treat and steel in other's etched blades, but it has taken a lot of experience to realize what can be seen. I am sorry that there is not quick thought I can provide other than encourage your future exploration and welcome you to the quest for the high performance blade.
 
Coach Fowler... Thanks for the encouragement. I guess it's time to get back to work! I honestly can't wait to "max out" my first blade. My biggest problem so far has been scraping together two minutes get out into the shop. I've started using my lunch break as shop time. I live about 10 minutes from work, so by the time I drive home and heat up the steel I can get about 3 or 4 heats before I have to get back to work. My wife thinks I'm up to something because I'm in such a good mood lately. All of the frustrations from the first half of the day get left in my shop. I think it's going to result in better grain structure.. All of that hammering below critical is such a pleasure now:D

Ed (Fowler), When you speak of cameras in your shop, are you talking about the super magnification kind that shows crystals and grains of the steel?

Rick
 
Hey Rick! Congratualtions! I know your blade will pass the ABS performance test! Now its time for you to find your own standard of excellence! The Rick Baum Performance test! Good job Buddy!

shane
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top