How do you know if you are bad at sharpening or have bad steel?

[Balls Deep]

I wanted to post this thread because this is something that's been vexing me. We all have our preferred sharpening methods. Mine is a water stone, I have a kai cutlery 1000, 6000 I bought at the Kershaw sale a couple of years back that is my preferred method. I would call myself a sharpening amature. I have no formal training, no one's sat me down and tought. I've learned what I know from youtube videos and the blade forums which has been helpful. I understand bevel angles and a steady hand and I have many hours of practice with this. What I've found is that some knives I can get screaming sharp and some knives it just seems like I go at it forever and don't get favorable results.

Knives I can get literal shaving sharp are forschner and shun chef's knives, cold steel knives, my dexter russel white handled paring knive, USA made Schrade stockman with ATS 34. (Funny story about the stockman I bought it in 2003 and didn't know crap about knives, since joining the forums I've learned that schrade got bought and that was the last of the good ones. Since learning how to take care of knives, I have to say, it's a very good knife.)

Anyway, I recently purchased a Utica cutlery big pine barlow. Like another blade forum member I chose this brand primarily because they are 1) made in the USA and 2) use 1095 on the main blade. After getting this knife I'm kind of giving it a so so. I may do a full review on it later because I haven't found one on the forums yet. The knife came with nice polish but it was not sharp. I used the same routine on it as the knives above and I just cannot get this knife sharp. I've had this happen with a few other knives in the past.

I'm kind of rambling here but what I'm asking is - Is there any sure fire way to tell if you can't get a knife sharp because you're bad at sharpening or because the knife has bad steel? Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
BD

 

[Jamesh Bond]

Steel type, geometry, and hardness can affect the ease of sharpening. But you can still get any knife sharp. Check out the sticky threads in Maintenance if you havent already. Those will explain it.

 

[Blades&Bullets]

If you can get other knives shaving sharp then I certainly wouldn't say you're bad at sharpening. It may be the steel is harder than your used to or the edge is a different angle than you usually sharpen at. I think kitchen knives are often a bit easier to sharpen since they have the thinner flat ground blades.

 

[Balls Deep]

Thanks for the responses and links. The information provided is good and fortunately stuff that I know. The sticky about moving up in stones appropriately and the importance of refining an edge is important good stuff and something I try to practice when sharpening. In fact, that was one of my issues for awhile was not spending enought time on the 1000 grit and spending too much time polishing.

 

[rutcrazed]

Hello B.D. I am no expert, in fact I am a noobie. I am sure some of the experts will chime in here. Some metals just do not play well with certain stones. Sometimes you need to change your sharpening media. Hopefully the experts will be along soon.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

Yep. Diamonds and ceramic make things easier.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Did you try a sharpie? Color the edge and see where you are actually grinding. Maybe it's too far back and never reaches the apex?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I wanted to post this thread because this is something that's been vexing me. We all have our preferred sharpening methods. Mine is a water stone, I have a kai cutlery 1000, 6000 I bought at the Kershaw sale a couple of years back that is my preferred method. I would call myself a sharpening amature. I have no formal training, no one's sat me down and tought. I've learned what I know from youtube videos and the blade forums which has been helpful. I understand bevel angles and a steady hand and I have many hours of practice with this. What I've found is that some knives I can get screaming sharp and some knives it just seems like I go at it forever and don't get favorable results.

Knives I can get literal shaving sharp are forschner and shun chef's knives, cold steel knives, my dexter russel white handled paring knive, USA made Schrade stockman with ATS 34. (Funny story about the stockman I bought it in 2003 and didn't know crap about knives, since joining the forums I've learned that schrade got bought and that was the last of the good ones. Since learning how to take care of knives, I have to say, it's a very good knife.)

Anyway, I recently purchased a Utica cutlery big pine barlow. Like another blade forum member I chose this brand primarily because they are 1) made in the USA and 2) use 1095 on the main blade. After getting this knife I'm kind of giving it a so so. I may do a full review on it later because I haven't found one on the forums yet. The knife came with nice polish but it was not sharp. I used the same routine on it as the knives above and I just cannot get this knife sharp. I've had this happen with a few other knives in the past.

I'm kind of rambling here but what I'm asking is - Is there any sure fire way to tell if you can't get a knife sharp because you're bad at sharpening or because the knife has bad steel? Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
BD

Might try something very basic for the 1095 blade, for sharpening it. IF THE STEEL IS GOOD (pure, good heat treat, etc.), it should respond well to most anything simple. On the other hand, if the heat treat left it too soft, it may not take a fine edge very well, and some abrasives or techniques might overkill the edge away. As an example, I have a 1095-bladed folder from Moore Maker, contract-made by another manufacturer, that simply doesn't take an edge much beyond ~600 grit or so; with anything finer, the edge just folds over or strips away, even when doing simple tasks like cutting paper.

With GOOD steel, I've found 1095 will easily sharpen up with just light passes on a Fine/EF diamond hone (600-1200), a Fine SiC stone (maybe ~320 or so), or wet/dry sandpaper (hard-backed, anything from 320 and up, to 2000+). Should also respond well to a soft/medium Arkansas stone as well. Keep it simple, limiting honing to only one stone or abrasive, to minimize the variables. As I said, if the steel is good, it should make sharpening a breeze. This is what I love about good carbon steel, in 1095 or CV; the better it is, the easier it is to hone to wicked sharpness by very simple means and media. It's a pure joy to sharpen when it's done right by the maker. I also have a stellar example of 1095 from Schrade USA (8OT stockman), and it's my favorite knife of all, for these reasons.

1095 is always simple to grind (i.e., remove lots of metal), whether it takes an edge or not. It has no hard carbides, so it should never be too hard to grind on anything but the softest of stones. The difference between the good stuff and bad is if the edge can be refined and, secondarily, how long it'll hold that fine edge, once it's created.


David

 

[Meast58]

Thanks for the responses and links. The information provided is good and fortunately stuff that I know. The sticky about moving up in stones appropriately and the importance of refining an edge is important good stuff and something I try to practice when sharpening. In fact, that was one of my issues for awhile was not spending enought time on the 1000 grit and spending too much time polishing.

I love your name! I wish I had thought of that first!

 

[Balls Deep]

Thanks for the advice guys, I'll give some diamond stones a ttry and see how they do for my edge issues.

 

[A. G. Russell]

years ago, when I was in the whetstone business I flatened an edge on the top of a tin can, sharpened a short segment on my Arkansas stones and cut about 6 hairs and a half inch of paper before it went dull.

 

[eKretz]

Yeah, as A.G. has eloquently pointed out, you ought to be able to get an edge even on bad steel. If it's too hard you may need to adjust your sharpening angle so it doesn't crumble or chip, but too soft to get sharp I haven't run across before. It's possible to get hard core burring and/or wire edge when steel is too soft though - perhaps that is your issue? If you know for sure that you're getting to the apex I'm not sure what else it might be.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Recently, I dug out an older Ka-bar knife I'd bought years ago, and had long anticipated putting a properly thin and sharp edge on it (factory edge was predictably thick). The blade looked like simple carbon steel (maybe 1095; I tested it with a little bit of vinegar, for a quick stain on the blade), and I'd hoped it'd take a screaming-sharp edge. When I finally set about the project, the results were sadly disappointing. After thinning the edge grind and stropping it on denim with some AlOx compound, I noticed it dulled almost immediately after cutting some paper. I re-ground the edge bevels after scrubbing what I assumed to be bad steel away from the edge, by scrubbing the edge perpendicularly to the surface of my SiC stone. After re-grinding the edge bevels and stropping again, same result. I tuned up the edge once more, stropped it until it would shave some hair from my arm, and then drew the edge across the edge of my thumbnail while looking at the edge under bright light. By the light it refected, I could actually SEE the edge roll over as I drew it across the edge of my thumbnail. That's a textbook example of what I view BAD steel to be.


David

 

[yepimonfire]

Steel type, geometry, and hardness can affect the ease of sharpening. But you can still get any knife sharp. Check out the sticky threads in Maintenance if you havent already. Those will explain it.

I'm guessing you've never attempted to sharpen one of these....