How To How do you know if your steel is at the temp you need?

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suha04

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Hi guys!

The title speaks for itself.
I'd like to familiarize myself with the craft, with the hope that I will get to the point of me having my own workshop with my own forged knifes and other cool things, but until then, I guess I'll just ask the pros about their methods.
How do you know when does the steel reach the right temperature for you to forge, heat-treat, and start tempering? I know I should start learning metallorgy and other sciences, but I'm curious about your advices.

Every comment is highly appreciated!
 
I'll speak briefly to heat treating. A very few simple steels can be heat treated simply by bringing the steel a shade above the temperature where it loses magnetism. This is known as the curie point and is 1414F. For instance, 1084 is a great beginner steel. You can bring it up to temperature so that it loses magnetism, hold it for a bit longer so that temperatures reach somewhere around 1450-1500F and then quench.

More complex steels, on the other hand, REALLY benefit from known and controlled heats. For complex tool steels, you might desire to hold temperature for 5, 10, 20 minutes, and that is difficult to do in a forge without overheating parts or all of the blade. Stainless steels, it's even more difficult because you are dealing with very high temperatures and long holds to ensure everything is in solution. A PID controlled oven or possibly a PID controlled forge would be best for the more complex steels if you're looking to get the most out of the heat treatment.
 
silver_pilate said:
I'll speak briefly to heat treating. A very few simple steels can be heat treated simply by bringing the steel a shade above the temperature where it loses magnetism. This is known as the curie point and is 1414F. For instance, 1084 is a great beginner steel. You can bring it up to temperature so that it loses magnetism, hold it for a bit longer so that temperatures reach somewhere around 1450-1500F and then quench.

More complex steels, on the other hand, REALLY benefit from known and controlled heats. For complex tool steels, you might desire to hold temperature for 5, 10, 20 minutes, and that is difficult to do in a forge without overheating parts or all of the blade. Stainless steels, it's even more difficult because you are dealing with very high temperatures. A PID controlled oven or even a PID controlled forge would be best for the more complex steels if you're looking to get the most out of the heat treatment.
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Thank you for the tip! However, in my case, I'm not from America, and I spent weeks searching for 1080-1084 steels before I had a phone conversation where they told me, we Europeans don't have these steels.
They preferred M1 (some sort of tool-steel) and the well-known 15N20.
 
I believe a steel similar to 1080 in Europe is 1.2003. It heat treats a smidge higher from what I can tell, but should be similar.
 
silver_pilate said:
I believe a steel similar to 1080 in Europe is 1.2003. It heat treats a smidge higher from what I can tell, but should be similar.
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I can't help myself, I have to ask this. I'm not planning to do damascus, but I need to know. Would this 1.2003 and 15N20 steel make a great pair like the 1080 would? How does damascus needs to be forged? Should you forge it at the highest steel temperature between the two, or how does it work? Same question for heat-treat.
Thanks :D
 
75cr1 and 80crv2 are readily available.

Check eurotechni, nordischeshandwerk and gfk for online supplies. France, Germany and UK.

If you are just starting out and don't want to spend a lot of money and can't get good steel locally, try making a knife from an old file (with or without HT).
 
suha04 said:
I can't help myself, I have to ask this. I'm not planning to do damascus, but I need to know. Would this 1.2003 and 15N20 steel make a great pair like the 1080 would? How does damascus needs to be forged? Should you forge it at the highest steel temperature between the two, or how does it work? Same question for heat-treat.
Thanks :D
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You won't be able to notice the difference if you don't HT yourself and test a lot. >0.7% carbon will make a good knife if the HT is good.
 
suha04 said:
I can't help myself, I have to ask this. I'm not planning to do damascus, but I need to know. Would this 1.2003 and 15N20 steel make a great pair like the 1080 would? How does damascus needs to be forged? Should you forge it at the highest steel temperature between the two, or how does it work? Same question for heat-treat.
Thanks :D
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Well kid , you ask to much question :) read STICKY in this forum and after one year come back with questions :p
 
Natlek is sort of kidding you... sort of.

The truth is you are asking questions that are far down the road from where you are now. Learning to forge 1080/1084 1/2003/15N20/etc. is not too complex, but learning damascus is something for after you have fully perfected the basic forging skills. The heats for forge welding are high and you will destroy the billet if they are not right. This comes with skill and practice. Expect it to take a year to learn those basic skills before you take on damascus.

As to knowing the temperature of the steel when hardening the blade, unless you use an electric HT oven/kiln you will have to guess. After a year or so, you will get pretty good at judging the temperature of the steel. The one point you can truly know is the Curie point - 1414°F/768°C. From there you have to determine the increase in brightness and change in color from red to orange to yellow to white. That is the color range between 1300°F and 2400°F ( 700°C to 1300°C).
If not using a magnet, you can learn to read is calescence and decalescence. These are often nicknamed the fairy dances. Again, this takes practice to see.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Natlek is sort of kidding you... sort of.

The truth is you are asking questions that are far down the road from where you are now. Learning to forge 1080/1084 1/2003/15N20/etc. is not too complex, but learning damascus is something for after you have fully perfected the basic forging skills. The heats for forge welding are high and you will destroy the billet if they are not right. This comes with skill and practice. Expect it to take a year to learn those basic skills before you take on damascus.

As to knowing the temperature of the steel when hardening the blade, unless you use an electric HT oven/kiln you will have to guess. After a year or so, you will get pretty good at judging the temperature of the steel. The one point you can truly know is the Curie point - 1414°F/768°C. From there you have to determine the increase in brightness and change in color from red to orange to yellow to white. That is the color range between 1300°F and 2400°F ( 700°C to 1300°C).
If not using a magnet, you can learn to read is calescence and decalescence. These are often nicknamed the fairy dances. Again, this takes practice to see.
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Thank you so much!
You gave me more answers than I asked for!
 
suha04 said:
I guess you're right. :p
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;)
OK , you are a sixteen year kid. I hope you have the approval of your father for all this ??? To make knife you will need many tools , like angle grinder for example.Angle grinder can be very dangerous ,can cause very bad injuries .Next you will need forge ..... I recommend you one on coal .Gas forge can be dangerous also ......Whatever you do take care of your safety, if you are not sure what you are doing and how to do it, ask !!
For start , ask your father to try to get some old leaf spring in the auto service where he maintains car or in some scrap yard .You will have enough steel to play with .And don't get stuck just in this of all your free time , don't forget the girls .... summer is coming :p
 
Natlek said:
;)
OK , you are a sixteen year kid. I hope you have the approval of your father for all this ??? To make knife you will need many tools , like angle grinder for example.Angle grinder can be very dangerous ,can cause very bad injuries .Next you will need forge ..... I recommend you one on coal .Gas forge can be dangerous also ......Whatever you do take care of your safety, if you are not sure what you are doing and how to do it, ask !!
For start , ask your father to try to get some old leaf spring in the auto service where he maintains car or in some scrap yard .You will have enough steel to play with .And don't get stuck just in this of all your free time , don't forget the girls .... summer is coming :p
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Well, aren't you so nice! :D

I can assure you, I started working with my dad at the age of 11, so I familiarized myself with these tools, (however, I hate angle grinders, I prefer bench saws if possible :D), and of course, he's down for the idea of me trying these things. Of course, I experimented with scraps before, I wouldn't want to just waste my money, I even practiced heat-treating and tempering too, so it's really the smithing part which will be new to me. We thought about using coke for the forge, so the gas one is out of question.

I promise to always wear glasses, keep my hands attached, and I'll take a break in summer :D
 
Don't let Natlek rattle you. He means well.
I looked at your profile and don't see any info at all. Fill out your info with age, location, and something about you. That will help us give advice as well as any local smiths offering some help.

I am not sure what natlek has against a gas forge., but they are very simple to build and are much easier to operate. The Stickys has info on building forges, and there are many online tutorials. My advice on building a forge is not to scrim on the materials and size. A 16" long forge with a 5" round chamber and a blown burner will last for many years and do any task needed.

BTW, the stickys has the custom search engine that will find you previous threads on any topic. Search "building a forge" and you should get lots of info.

Many years back I developed the Two-stage PID controlled Forge Burner System. I didn't patent it or sell it, but instead gave the plans free to any knifemaker who wants to build it. There is info and plans in the Stickys, as well as in old threads. This will allow you to control your gas forge to a very precise temperature. The best thing is it is an add-on to almost any existing gas forge. Build a simple forge and add the PID control later on.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I am not sure what natlek has against a gas forge., but they are very simple to build and are much easier to operate.
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He is only sixteen years old kid , Stacy .........This winter alone, I know of four cases of a gas bottle explosion in Macedonia, one dead, severe burns on many others and destroyed buildings.............. People either don’t know how to handle gas equipment or they are stupid !
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Don't let Natlek rattle you. He means well.
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I know he means well, I'm really flattered, but there is nothing to fear. I might be 16, but I'm not stupid, nor sloppy. Sure, I'm not going to try things I don't understand, but you have to realize Natlek, People who born in 2004 are not that young anymore. I attend to High School, and a few months later I can start studying for a driving license. I've heard a lot of people started way before my age, but I will be very precatious and make sure I won't hurt myself in the process.
Thanks for all the support!
 
suha04 said:
I know he means well, I'm really flattered, but there is nothing to fear. I might be 16, but I'm not stupid, nor sloppy. Sure, I'm not going to try things I don't understand, but you have to realize Natlek, People who born in 2004 are not that young anymore. I attend to High School, and a few months later I can start studying for a driving license. I've heard a lot of people started way before my age, but I will be very precatious and make sure I won't hurt myself in the process.
Thanks for all the support!
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Young man, it seems you are (****)just not yet able to realize it :confused:
You should have looked for all these banal questions in your surroundings and as far as I know there are a large number of knifemakers in Hungary;)
 
chumaman said:
Young man, it seems you are (****)just not yet able to realize it :confused:
You should have looked for all these banal questions in your surroundings and as far as I know there are a large number of knifemakers in Hungary;)
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Why the bad language? Why even taking your time to comment something like that?
Well, old man, I asked my "banal" questions because I asked here before too, and most of the people was happy to help out others in need. I asked for basics, I got the basics. So feel free to leave this tread.
 
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