How do you rate the 19th century Japanese knifemakers?

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I have read up a bit on these ancient blademakers of Japan. The impression I got was that they really know their stuff and they were very meticulous with the knifemaking process.

There are numerous samples of these blades whether it is katana or others around, in Japan or elsewhere.

Has anybody done a comparison between these ancient Japanese blades and the modern ones?

If there had been such a study carried out, what were the findings?

Just curious.
 
Hi Golok,

Do you mean ancient japanese sword and modern japanese sword ?

Or, ancient japanese sword and modern japanese 'style' sword made by American bladesmith ?
 
Beluga, the subject below would be more specific.

Ancient japanese sword and modern japanese 'style' sword made by American bladesmith.

I would appreciate your opinion.
 
My response will be cryptic and general, though that is an accurate reflection of my knowledge of the subject!



The Japanese blades are, were, and always will be incredible. The Japanese knew how to combine function and aesthetics in one kick butt package. The complexity of these swords (folded steels, using different steels for the core, the edge, the sides, and even the back sometimes), water quenching, the intricacies of the handles (tsuka)... it really is incredible. And the ebst part is that the Japanese were meticulous record keepers, so information about usage is easy to find.

As far as comparisons with modern "japanese" or "Japanese styled" blades go... well... that is hard to make, because it depends on what you are comparing. Lots of information can be found at the sword forum here, or at www.swordforum.com

What one has to remember with Japanese smiths, though, is that they did the ebst they could with the materials, knowledge, and techniques they had. Howard Clark makes swords out of L6 now, and these end up with a crystaline structure called bainite. These swords don't feel like traditional swords, but they sure can take more abuse. Also, many making japanese styled swords today start with "mono-steel". The Japanese folded their steel to even out the carbon/reduce the carbon. We don't need to do that with steels today, so the folding is, for a large part, purely cosmetic. THe folding may ad flexibility or strength or something like that, but I am not sure. I still think that with using mono-steel, the benefits are cosmetic (which is a fine reason for doing things, as long as it doesn't hurt the function.)

Also, Japanese swords were rarely tempered. I read that Masamune's blades performed so well because he actually discovered tempering, but most smiths in Japan didn't temper (I think some do now.) I believe most non-Japanese doing the Japanese style are tempering their swords, and this has made the swords.. oh, what is the word... better able to survive nasty things that can happen to swords. Also, when using modern steel and other modern materials, you need to use more modern techniques. So, a blade made of the 1086 mod steel from Howard Clark will require a combination of traditional and modern methods to polish it.

I hate do carve things up like this, but I kind-of see the "sword world" as 3 worlds. There are those doing things very traditionally, which seems to be the largest "voice" in swords. There are thos eusing modern materials and techniques, but trying to end up with as traditional a package as possible. And then there are those who borrow from the past, but try to make their blades as modern as possible. Jerry Hossom is a good example of a swordmaker in the last category. he'll look at a bolo and get input abotu it's use, adn then take S30-V and micarta and go to town! The resulting sword may "appear" little like a "real" bolo, but the principles and features are still there, but you get all of the advantages of modern materials and methods.

I think there is room for all three worlds, and that most of the bad arguing you get in the sword world is from members of the differing groups fighting about what the other is doing.

Enjoy all swords, as that si what I do!
 
Everyone's gonna hate me for this, but oh well.... I think the true swordmakers of today are leaps and bounds ahead of 19th century Japanes swordmakers in technology, materials and yes...even technique. 19th century Japanese smiths were bound by tradition and did not have the luxury of being able to experiment with a wide variety of steels. They had black sand and bits of broken pots to work with. Yes, they did contribute greatly to the world of bladesmithing as we know it. The fact remains that we have 2 centuries of progress and the freedom to take the very best swordmaking techniques and blade features of every civilization and combine them into our modern blades. That's something they just did not have.

The Wright brothers were geniuses, however when it comes to piloting they are no match to modern USAF fighter pilots.

Tim
 
Oh yeah, one last thing. Had Conner MacLeod been carrying a scramsax when he beat Kurgan, we would probably be asking the same thing about Viking swordsmiths... ;)

Tim
 
To begin with, the Japanese smiths had low quality steel to work with, impure and hard to produce. And yes, they did temper, that's how the swords attain that curve. Their source of iron was sand with little amounts of iron, and producing one pound of steel was not an easy task. They sure knew their stuff, and they certainly made art from nothing, so while the actual sword they produced is far from the stories of GI's who said they could cut through gun barrels, it's certainly a work of art that only few people would have the patience and skill to do.

Modern japanese styled knives are good, nothing wrong there. But there really is nothing new under the sun in terms of style, or grind, etc.

To sum it all up, the smiths of back then are the equivalent of the best smiths today. They were masters at what they did with the materials they had to work with.

On another note, this is why I don't think there should be much steel snobbery. If regular to low grade steel was sufficient for these people to make beautiful weapons and tools, why should we put so much emphasis on what the new flavor of the month is on steel? ;)
 
Toolhead, you are right. I hate you for saying that !!!! :D

Well, you gotta remember something though, most swordmaker now uses the technique that was used by the old makers. Water quenching, oil quenching, temper line, shape, even steel (not most swordmaker).

Take Paul Champagne for example, he mines his own iron. How ? Simple, go to the beach with a big magnet in one hand and a small bucket in the other hand.
This technique was used (and still is) by old swordmaker. Yoshindo Yoshihara (National Living Treasure from Japan, still alive) mines his own steel, and man his works are incredible. Nobuki Ueyama, a great swordsmith, also mines his own steel.

Having both kind of sword (antique katana, and modern american made katana), I can't say which of those is better than the other. I've never compared them in peformance. Even from the aesthetic point of view, both have its goodness. The hamon, the hada, the shape are different. Simply said, I love them both.

Then why modern swordsmith use modern steel ? Simple, modern steels are widely available. They don't have to mine their own. They can cut cost, produce blades faster, they have better control towards their product. Compare : 3 months (or even more) making sword in traditional style (price of blade : $6000 - more) and 1 month making sword in modern style (price of blade : $1500 - more). See what I mean ?

BTW, can somebody do me a huge favor ? I have a pic that I want to post here, but I can't. The picture will show what an almost perfect technique can do with a great sword. Please help me.

Again, I cannot choose between them, nor can I say which one is better.

When talking about which steel is better, again, I can't say. Both have its greatness and both have its downhills. But, recent polls at sword forum conclude that steel from iron ore (sand) is better than modern steel. The purest, the better.
 
Originally posted by Crayola
Also, Japanese swords were rarely tempered. I read that Masamune's blades performed so well because he actually discovered tempering, but most smiths in Japan didn't temper (I think some do now.) I believe most non-Japanese doing the Japanese style are tempering their swords, and this has made the swords.. oh, what is the word... better able to survive nasty things that can happen to swords.
Originally posted by Don Rac
And yes, they did temper, that's how the swords attain that curve.
I think two different processes are being cited here by the same name. Some use the term "tempering" to describe the combined process of hardening and "drawing back." Others use the term "tempering" to describe only the post hardening process of drawing back the quench related brittleness, resulting in a more resilient or tougher blade.

Don has the right idea about the origin of the blade curvature, but is using a different terminology. It results from the hardening, or quenching of the blade. The edge is quenched, and remains in it's slightly longer state (due to heat expansion.) The spine of the blade does not harden, so it contracts back to it's original dimensions.

The smith may then choose to temper or draw back the blade to make it tougher, and not so brittle. Or as Crayola put it so eloquently "better able to survive nasty things that can happen to swords." (Crayola - Great verbage! Very descriptive!:))
 
Don (and Centaur): As for tempering, I am meaning the process of re-heating an already heat treated blade to releive stress and reduce hardness. And as said, the curvature in Japanese swords is a result of differing cooling rates between the edge and back of the steel. For some reason, I forget which end goes first, but I think that the very back of the blade is scraped of clay, so it will cool fastest and pull the edge up. I'm not exactly sure though!

Centaur: sometimes these "functional" desctiptions are more useful than toughnes curves or some other technical bit :) I always mix up strength and toughness (these have technical definitions), but "surivability against nasty things that can happen to swords" is easy to remember :)
 
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