how do you train?

C

Chariot

Joined
Jul 9, 2000
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173
what would you say is the most likely scenario to happen on the street? knife against knife? knife against gun? knife against unarmed? and do you spend most of your time training against the most likely situations to happen? if not, shouldnt you? what can you do to make the training as realistic as possible in trying to prepare you for the real thing?

isnt fma about two people experienced in knives and wearing them openely? based on the knife culture in the filipines?? isnt it wise to adjust it a bit to our culture and our way of living? the chances of meeting someone skilled with a knife isnt that big is it? i would think thugs on the street mostly have knives to scare and control the situation ("i got the knife, he doesnt") type of thinking... how big a chance would you say the fight ends just because you pull a knife yourself and is determined to fight if you have to (would this situation even arise or would you pull a knife and use it in one motion??)

i rather spend my time training something that is very likely to happen, then just bits and pieces here and there... so with all the different fma styles which one would you say is the most up to date, realistic one adapted to our culture and ways of carrying a knife? im not interested in the "art" but rather the what is most likely to work self-defense aspect of it....
 
I agree with you here. If someone wants to train for today's mean streets than they should focus on scenarios that are most likely to occur. The most common scenarios seen today are usually unarmed victims versus armed attackers, therefore that should be the emphasis. However, alot of the FMA drills and techniques are still used to develop skill, coordination, and fighting savvy. You asked which FMA style is the most updated for today's mean streets, in my opinion this would be W. Hock Hochheim's Archipelago Combatives. Archipelago Combatives is a hardcore blend of various arts from China, Japan, Indonesia, Filipines, and America. The focus is on universal movements that can be executed with sticks, knives, and empty-hands. There is also alot of emphasis on realistic scenarios that are most likely to occur out in the streets.

Just my opinion.

Steve
 
Chariot, no quick answers here.

What I think would be most common?
Mugging or a consensual fight, regardless of weapons. A crime dealing with property or some type of perceived emotional conflict.
Probably knife vs hands, since you're not born with a weapon in your hand.

I don't spend any particular time on one thing at least with the knife. I train the empty hand to compliment it because they do compliment each other. However, I've been fortunate to have both empty and weapons training. I go up against weapons of varying length because I can't choose what the bad guy is carrying.

What can I do to make it more real? If I don't have a loose structured school, I would get someone I trust to train with and work with him. Training with different folks is more important than learning mulitple moves.

FMA is about weapon combat IMO and people are the ones to adjust. The odds of you meeting someone skilled, probably isn't big. Depends by what you mean by skilled. I figure that the person next to you in a combatives class might be the knife guy because most folks don't live in a vaccuum. People train in different styles some at once. Some people shop for an eternity and never get any skill.

I don't know of any one special FMA art. I do know you need to start somewhere because it boils down to you being able to do something and think on your feet. You can't always predict what situation you will face.
If you don't put in the time, you may have a bigger problem. No magic, no finger snapping.

You can train and never have to fight. You can be totally skilled and still get hurt bad. Any kind of MA is meant to give you options. It's always gonna end up back to the fighter and his personal qualities.

 
I focus on basic skills and likely situations with beginners, more advanced skills and difficult situations with advanced students.

The ways you're most likely to be attacked depends on who you are -- a young woman, a man in a powered wheelchair, a scary-looking guy....

Some of the people I train with seem to be more interested in having fun than in learning new skills -- they want to spar with training knives like in a duel; they want to spend the whole session in free sparring because that's the fun part ... and they get frustrated because they can't "win" in free sparring. I have the same problem teaching some kids to play chess -- they don't want to study openings and strategy and tactics, they want to play, and they get frustrated because they can't win -- but they don't want to work at it, they don't want to study, they just want to play.... I guess it's a kid thing ... and some people never grow up....


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-Cougar Allen :{)
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This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
my boys practice mostly empty hands against emtpy hands because that is our specialty. but for the stick, i prefer to focus on their attack method because we do not value stick to stick or knife to knife very much. they do learn the technique, but after i give them all i will give them for that level they learn most valuable stuff by sparring.

for weapons we do a lot of stick against stick as well as stick against the empty hand. i did not teach the blade to my california students yet because they did not master the stick yet. for three of my students we are using the walking cane. since i have not use one before, it is very basic only and we have only been doing the strikings right now. my plan is to come up with a way to use it against different kinds of weapons.

one of the problems i see in the philippine fighting styles is that we spend to much time with theoretical stuff not exeprimental stuff, where we are supposed to come from. this is why we see so much stick vs stick, knife vs knife, espada at daga vs espada at daga, etc...

but you are right, anyone who has spent any time on the street knows that most fighting will be empty hands or with more than two people, not one on one with both of you having the same weapons.
 
I agree with the point that I think Kuntawman is making. If it's a street fight then you're probably outnumbered and outgunned. The BG is always going to try to stack the deck in their favor through superior "fire power".

I also agree that one thing that a lot of people don't do is experiment & spar with one weapon system against another. Most agree that sparring in general is a valuable tool for the skills & attributes it teaches, but most groups spar single stick vs. single stick (for example) and leave it at that. However, single stick is applied differently when facing a knife or nunchucka for example.

Conveniently enough though, the FCMAA is going to be holding a 1 day seminar on this very thing. We will cover double stick vs. staff; espada y daga vs. staff; single stick vs. staff; single stick vs. knife; single stick vs. empty hands; knife vs. empty hands and more. The Seminar will be on Saturday January 27, 2000 in Frederick, MD.

See the thread entitled "Seminar Announcement" for more details or email me directly.

Thanks!

Dave Fulton

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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 01-14-2001).]
 
The most likely scenario is that you will be assaulted at an ATM machine, or in a parking lot, backed into a corner by two or more enemies brandishing a weapon. So a good part of our training is empty hands against knife with our backs against a wall. I think of the knife primarily as a weapon to disarm an attacker by cutting the weapon arm, wrist, etc., in order to escape. Disarm and run, or if enable to escape, at least go down cutting.

But not all our training is for self defense. That was not the source of our art. The source was combat originally, and more contemporarily, the challenge duel. Serrada is not for self defense so much, though it translates well to bowie sized fighting knives. It is a combat art. I study it primarily for tradition, challenge, and the beauty of it.

Suro would say that what I just wrote is wrong, that everything is there in Serrada, that Serrada can be translated to any range, any weapon, including empty hands. It is only my lack of skill and vision that prevents me from using Serrada for empty hand self defense. And he would be right of course. Suro always is, by definition.
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[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 01-16-2001).]
 
you really think in the heat of the moment when youre life is on the line, high on adrenaline etc that you can successfully cut someone in the wrist etc in order to stop the attack? to me that sounds very unlikely... in real life people dont move in slow-mo.. as for all this training with sticks, against sticks etc... whats up with that? you really think that's your #1 priority learning how to fight someone (or rather defend) against someone with a stick? it just dont seem to be the most likely scenario to happen..
 
It's a training tool, Chariot--like anything else...a template for movement...don't get caught up in the "stick" or the "blade" or the "empty-hand"--it's an attack that's coming in along an angle, like anything else. Not all of us instinctively cut the wrist either...not all the time...try to percieve it as a quick interception of a blow that is coming in at a particular angle...that interception ("check") gets translated into a blow, usually towards the vitals, followed by a series of blows, again to vitals--and depending on the system, these are often maiming shots...then a lock/control/finishing move...it doesn't have to be a "stick", Chariot...that's a common misconception, even in the Philippines...and the person that tries to test that error with malicious intent often gets harmed...

A good place to begin an understanding of the basic angles of attack would be Jerry Van Cook's book, REAL-WORLD SELF DEFENSE, which is published by Paladin Press...go here:

www.paladin-press.com

Remember--one can say "ohhh, there are potentially hundreds, if not thousands of attacks!" Perhaps--but there are only so many planes of motion within which to execute this attack, only so many directions--angles--with which to execute a strike upon another person...if you are aware of your zones to defend, you're gonna do okay regardless of the direction of the attack...

Good luck in your explorations, and current/future training, Chariot...If you take a peek at Jerry Van Cook's book--I'd be interested as to your thoughts...be well.
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Of course, one doesn't HAVE to wait for an incoming attack in a street situation--one might have avoided it via the use of awareness/intuition, one might have bluffed/negotiated/de-escalated it verbally...one might decide to strike pre-emptively, to finish the situation before it ever begins...it's a tactical consideration of the moment itself...like anything...and it can be with a weapon or without...depending on the nature of the situation. It's common sense, really, which isn't just found in FMAs...of course, being Filipino, I'd like to claim the entirety of martial truth for the Filipino Arts of War...
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But, I'll forbear on my own cultural nationalism today
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, and say that surviving a street attack doesn't "require" that you study FMAs...but we give another set of tools for the complete fighter's tool box...and I don't mean just "sticks/blades", I mean another method of understanding movement in the moment of conflict...as for the adrenaline dump--that's why lots of us do scenario-based training, and spar HARD--to get used to the adrenaline dump and condition our tolerance for pain, and to "encounter" situations of harm and fear in a training environment, which if you work it right, ain't a "sterile dojo of harnessing the mystical"--being able to use the concept of "angles of attack" isn't particularly esoteric, actually--nor is it a "fine-motor skill"...it's gross motor, actually...even W.E. Fairbairn, the granddaddy of WWII-era close combatives, which is really simple brutal stuff, had "angles of attack", Mr. Bob Kasper of the GHCA (WWII-era CQC organization) knows this quite well I understand, and uses/teaches them himself in his most excellent program, so do many other real-world Warriors...plus, getting back to the stick question, one gets used to the idea/reality of a weapon coming at oneself--expanding one's "zone of comfort" constantly with training, that's why we value realistic training knives, metal trainers, etc.--to get accustomed to that which most fear...take care and be well...
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[This message has been edited by bayani (edited 01-17-2001).]
 
Chariot:

I am not sure I understand your last set of questions exactly. But don't get so angry that you scare away the knowledge.
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The answer to your questions, as I understand them, is training. Practice fighting regularly with guys who are trying to thrash your body with their aluminum training knives, and eventually you gain some skill and scoring a crippling cut on the arm or wrist of somebody who is trying to pile drive you enters the circle of possibility.

There are two perspectives on stick fighting. One is that the techniques and reflexes you are learning translate to blades. The other is that the stick is a formidable weapon in its own right. Grand Master Angel Cabales' original Serrada logo had a stick and a sword crossed with the stick in the front, symbolizing GM Cabales' feeling that the stick was superior because it was easier to carry and equally lethal in skilled hands.

Lastly, like I wrote above, which didn't seem to sink in, the FMAs are not only for street self-defense. Some of the styles and techiques are combat oriented, and if you are not interested in that, then you can always look for a system that doesn't include them.
 
chariot you have a good point and i think many of our brothers do miss the idea of the fight because they think too much about what is done in the classroom. but i have a comment to make about something you said.

there is no martial that will prepare you with exactly what is happening to you on the street. except maybe esp. but the job of the martial art is not to tell you what the streetfighter is going to do to you or try to do to you. the martial art, if you are being trained for fighting, makes your body tough, teaches you how to hurt someone, gives you the mental strength to hurt someone when its time, and finally helps your body keep going when you are scared or in pain. its true that probably nobody on the street is going to swing a stick at you the same goes for a guy who will put you in the guard (unless you are in a gay bar). but what learning these things do is remind you and makes it second nature to pop that guy in his cheekbone wheter it is with your fist, your cell phone, or a rock from the ground. the more you practice hitting somebody the better you will be prepared when that time comes.

these guys that are practicing slashing there knives will be more prepared when they need it than the guy who is practicing kata, even if they forgot the knife at home and only have a ballpen in their pocket.
 
kuntaw: yeah i fully agree. of course there's many benefits to training and someone, even with little knowledge of martial arts, will have a better chance than someone with no knowledge...

still, for myself i want to focus 100% on the most likely scenarios to happen and train accordingly... other people may have other interests in training and will choose something else.
 
Chariot:

That's a good plan, as far as it goes, but don't forget to prepare for the unexpected as well. The broader your training, the more adaptable you will be.
 
Chariot,

I understand your point, you want to invest in that which will give the most usable return i.e. learn what will be the most useful. That makes sense.

I don't know if you're a shooter or not but here's an example from that area which may make sense to you. When I teach someone who wants to ues a firearm for self-defense they want to be able to face an attacker with lethal intent, armed or otherwise and survive by shooting fast and accurately with their firearm of choice (say a 1911 .45ACP), if necessary.

I can't start someone out concentrating on that scenario though. If they are brand new shooters I start them out with a .22 revolver and spend a lot of time on target shooting and dry fire because first they must master the tool; learn trigger control and sight allignment. Then I move to point shooting and double tapping and then moving and shooting, drawing and shooting etc. After going through all this we get to the place where we can work directly on the goal, preparing against a real life possible scenario. Becoming proficient with a firearm takes only a fraction of the effort required for FMA or any other style for that matter.

There is no way to skip all the steps and come up with a good result, if anyone tries to tell you otherwise, IMHO, they want your money not your well being. Best wishes in your search.

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Si Vis Pacern Parabellum
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi

[This message has been edited by crecy (edited 01-18-2001).]
 
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