How does Buck make good knives out of 420HC?

Buck Knives uses Bos heat treatment and it is the best in the business. They can heat treat a stick of butter and it would out preform some of the knives out there. I have just come to know that Bucks 420HC in better than their premium steels...IMO...
 
pastormarty said:
I generally think of 420 as lower end stuff. How does Buck make good knives out of it?
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You might also be thinking about 420J2 steel which is used on some or all of the Buck models that are made off shore rather than the 420HC used on Bucks stateside models. Plus as stated the Bos heat treat is second to none, IMHO and as most knife folks either know or eventually realize, heat treating when done correctly can make a good steel better and when done poorly can turn a great steel into garbage.
 
Badhammer said:
You might also be thinking about 420J2 steel which is used on some or all of the Buck models that are made off shore rather than the 420HC used on Bucks stateside models. Plus as stated the Bos heat treat is second to none, IMHO and as most knife folks either know or eventually realize, heat treating when done correctly can make a good steel better and when done poorly can turn a great steel into garbage.
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If the 420j2 steel is thought of to be substandard, I disagree. The off shore Buck knives I have are razor sharp and stay that way. I have used one for a while during my fishing trips and they haven't rusted yet. Substandard, Not In my Observation...
 
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mbjannusch said:
If the 420j2 steel is thought of to be substandard, I disagree. The off shore Buck knives I have are razor sharp and stay that way. I have used one for a while during my fishing trips and they haven't rusted yet. Substandard, Not In my Opinion...
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I would agree with you. Just suggesting that the OP might have been thinking of that steel rather than 420HC. Perhaps he'll post again and clarify his remarks?
 
Is there a difference between 420J and 420J2? I've read in numerous place the opinion that 420J was worthy of of little more than display knives.

As for geometries, I find that different geometries are better for different things. The concave grind used on the Bucks I own are good for cutting flesh and meat but aren't as good for slicing vegetables or cutting down cardboard. I find flat or convex grinds better there.

I don't mind the concave grind on my 112 or 500. But I think it's nutty on the Buck canoe, at least compared to the flat grind on my old Ulster camper.
 
Because steel type is not as big a factor in a good knife as most people think.
 
For your reading pleasure:

"Overview:

420 J2 is a general purpose stainless steel containing medium quantity of carbon. It has good corrosion resistance qualities in mild atmosphere, domestic and industrial environments. It is resistant to ammonia, blood, carbonic acid, crude oil, detergent solutions, dilute nitric acid, fresh water, food acids, many petroleum products, steam and vinegar, etc. It has good strength and reasonable impact resistant properties in both hardened and tempered conditions as compared to 440 grades.

It is also called Surgical Steel, because it is being used in production of Surgical instruments on large scale around the world, due to its good corrosion resistant and easily machining qualities. It is also being used in cutting tools like; Knifes, Daggers, Swords, Haircutting Scissors and Domestic Scissors. It’s grinding is easy and it produces a fine, vivid and smooth polished surface.

420 steel, due to its excellent harden-ability, it is capable of getting hardened up to 56 HRC Rockwell or higher depending upon carbon contents / composition. Small sections can be air or gas cooled and larger sections should be oil quenched for maximum hardness."

And:

"AISI 420J2 Stainless Steel
Manufacturer: Various

420J2 is a low carbon stainless steel and also the lowest grade of cutlery class stainless steel that is available. It is quite tough and resistant to corrosion, however, it has low wear resistance and edge holding ability making it a poor choice for a blade steel.

Due to the soft nature of 420J2 and its easy machinability, it is commonly used in fantasy knives such as those designed by Kit Rae and Gil Hibben made by United Cutlery. It is also used in very entry level utility knives made by companies such as CRKT.

It is also used as a outer layer on laminated steels such as San Mai III and the ZDP-189/420J2 knives from Spyderco as well as material for liners in folding knives. It is easily brought to a high polish, which makes it cost effective in production, however its softness also makes it easy to scratch"
 
I see conflicting reviews. One says 420j2 contains a medium quantity of carbon. The other says it has a low quantity of carbon. We all know that the carbon content is one of the most important materials in steel used for knives. So which is it??? I would say, in my opinion the first review seem like the better one, and the experience I have had with the off shore made Buck knives.
 
I too would like to know the baseline they are using for the carbon comparison? 420HC is listed as having a carbon content of 0.46 whereas straight 420 is 0.15. Didn't find a spec for 420J2.
 
How does Buck make good knives out of 420HC?
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The answer to that question is rather simple.

The steel is just the beginning.

Many things happen on the long road that steel takes on its way to becoming an excellent knife.

Buck has the best map of that long road.
 
Does Buck do the same heat treatment on blade steel in China as they do here?? I'd hesitate to give them the recipe for Bos's treatments if I were Buck.
 
Badhammer said:
I too would like to know the baseline they are using for the carbon comparison? 420HC is listed as having a carbon content of 0.46 whereas straight 420 is 0.15. Didn't find a spec for 420J2.
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"Overview:
420 J2 is a general purpose stainless steel containing medium quantity of carbon. It has good corrosion resistance qualities in mild atmosphere, domestic and industrial environments. It is resistant to ammonia, blood, carbonic acid, crude oil, detergent solutions, dilute nitric acid, fresh water, food acids, many petroleum products, steam and vinegar, etc. It has good strength and reasonable impact resistant properties in both hardened and tempered conditions as compared to 440 grades.

It is also called Surgical Steel, because it is being used in production of Surgical instruments on large scale around the world, due to its good corrosion resistant and easily machining qualities. It is also being used in cutting tools like; Knifes, Daggers, Swords, Haircutting Scissors and Domestic Scissors. It’s grinding is easy and it produces a fine, vivid and smooth polished surface.

420 steel, due to its excellent harden-ability, it is capable of getting hardened up to 56 HRC Rockwell or higher depending upon carbon contents / composition. Small sections can be air or gas cooled and larger sections should be oil quenched for maximum hardness.

Heat Treatment
Sub-Critical Annealing:
Heat uniformly to 730 °C - 790 °C and hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section.
-Soak as required, cool in air.

Annealing
Heat uniformly to 840 °C - 900 °C and hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section.
-Soak as required. Cool in furnace.

Hardening
Heat to 950 °C - 1020 °C and hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section. Quench in oil or air cool. Temper immediately while still hand touch warm.

Note:
Hardening from 1020 °C - 1060 °C will give optimum corrosion resistance, but hardening upto 980 °C will give the best combination of corrosion resistance and mechanical properties.

Tempering
Min – Max: Heat to 650 °C - 750 °C and hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section.
-Soak as required. Cool in air.

Tempering within the range 150 °C - 200 °C will give optimum corrosion resistance and maximum hardness - up to 54 HRC depending upon section size. Tempering however within the range 400 °C - 550 °C should be avoided due to temper brittleness, resulting in a considerable reduction in impact resistant properties and loss of corrosion resistance.

*Heating temperatures, rates of heating, cooling and soaking times will vary due to factors such as work piece size / shape, also furnace type employed, quenching medium and work piece transfer facilities etc.

Machining
420 is machine-able in both the hardened and tempered conditions such as drilling, turning and bending. But it is recommended that machining in hardened condition should be avoided.

Welding
420 is not generally recommended for welding in either the annealed or hardened and tempered conditions, due to its air hardening capability which can lead to the formation of brittleness, resulting in cold cracking due to contraction stresses within the weld and heat affected zones. The higher the carbon content, the higher the hardening capability and greater risk of cracking. But despite all this, it is still easy to weld as compared to 440C grade.

Pre heating and inter-pass temperature control during welding, plus very slow cooling and post-weld annealing is the best method to prevent cracking.

Composition
Chemical Composition ranges of 420 J2 stainless steel

Grade 420 J2
Ingredients Min. Max.
Carbon 0.15-0.36
Manganese - 1.00
Silicon - 1.00
* Nickel - 1.00
Phosphorus - 0.04
Sulphur - 0.03
Chromium 12.00-14.00

*Nickel addition is optional."
 
Plumberdv said:
Does Buck do the same heat treatment on blade steel in China as they do here?? I'd hesitate to give them the recipe for Bos's treatments if I were Buck.
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LOL! EXCELLENT question and equally excellent observation!

I sure hope one of our moderators will see fit to answer that one.
 
Plumberdv said:
Does Buck do the same heat treatment on blade steel in China as they do here?? I'd hesitate to give them the recipe for Bos's treatments if I were Buck.
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Im sure they could figure it out pn their own if it wasnt given.
 
The question is, Where does the steel come from? I don't know how much of the process is done in China. For all I know the blades are shipped to china and the off shore produced knives are just assembled, boxed, and shipped.
 
Seems counter productive to me to ship a major component to China and then back to the USA. Wouldn't the blades (if done that way) be marked "Made in the USA" the boxes be marked "Made in China using some USA made parts? They mark some that way the other way around.
 
More questions for Joe!!

:)

These are very interesting questions, though......certainly made me curious.
 
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