How far back does stainless steel in traditional folders stretch?

I

IMightBeWrong

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It seems like most of the older traditional knives out there are carbon steel. Was stainless steel a luxury back in the early 1900s? Was it not of good quality for knives back then? How far back does stainless in a traditional stretch, and why was carbon steel so prevalent? I thought stainless dated back to the 1800s, so it seems like it should have taken over the knife industry much sooner.
 
Commercial Stainless steel dates to the early 1900's. IIRC, decent cutlery grade stainless dates to somewhat later. '40's? something like that.
 
I believe Queen City Cutlery first used high grade stainless steel in the 1920s. Stainless steel was first patented in the US in 1915, but it took a while before it was accepted in cutlery.
 
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...eboards-and-Monkey-soap?p=9841709#post9841709

By the early 1920s most table knife blades were stainless steel, because it made knife polishers and knife boards obsolete.
First pocketknives with stainless steel blades c1923, by Camillus. Widely sold as luxury items by the late 1930s.

Edge holding was not so good because of inconsistent heat treat, NOT because of alloy composition.
That problem was not solved until circa 1937 when Henckels introduced the chill quench (Friodur).
Chill quench finally came to the USA c1950, Robeson Frozen Heat.
But it did not become universal until the late 1970s or later.
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I also think it took a while because traditional knives are a tradition. In that people don't like to change when something works especially if they may actually enjoy the extra care needed.
 
As long as stainless steels are used, I think as long they are used in pocket knives next to carbon steel. Some time ago, there was the "100th birthday" of stainless steel. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...py-100th-birthday-stainless-steel-you-old-guy! I read it on a german site and thought it would be interessting that this steel was first patented in Germany. I think the first pocket knives might have been made with carbon steel since this time...

Just my .02 Cent.
 
Thalestin said:
I also think it took a while because traditional knives are a tradition. In that people don't like to change when something works especially if they may actually enjoy the extra care needed.
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The older stainless knives from Queen were originally marked as 'stainless' on the blades, but Queen changed the stamps/etching to 'Queen Steel' for that very reason, without actually changing the steel. Even though most of those 'stainless' knives were 440C, it was considered 'inferior' at the time, and the 'stainless' blades didn't sell well. That's kind of ironic to me now, as I avoided the 'Queen Steel' knives because I didn't specifically know what stainless steel they were made from. If I had known they were 440C, I wouldn't have hesitated. Times have changed, as well as perceptions. :)
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
The older stainless knives from Queen were originally marked as 'stainless' on the blades, but Queen changed the stamps/etching to 'Queen Steel' for that very reason, without actually changing the steel. Even though most of those 'stainless' knives were 440C, it was considered 'inferior' at the time, and the 'stainless' blades didn't sell well. That's kind of ironic to me now, as I avoided the 'Queen Steel' knives because I didn't specifically know what stainless steel they were made from. If I had known they were 440C, I wouldn't have hesitated. Times have changed, as well as perceptions. :)
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440C existed in the 1920's? I thought it was first used post WWII.

SS invented by? http://www.bssa.org.uk/about_stainless_steel.php?id=31
 
Thomas Linton said:
440C existed in the 1920's? I thought it was first used post WWII.

SS invented by? http://www.bssa.org.uk/about_stainless_steel.php?id=31
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Not that far back, at least in Queen's case. I think you're estimation is about right. The guide I'm looking at (C. Houston Price, Official Price Guide to Collector Knives) describes a switch to stainless steel (440C) on at least some of Queen's knives by ~1945, though it doesn't specify exactly when they started using it. The 'stainless' labelling apparently coincided with a change in the tang stamps, from the older 'Queen City' brand, to the newer stamp with the 'Q' on the tang. Sometime after that is apparently when they changed from the 'stainless' mark to the 'Queen Steel' mark.

Edit:
Here's an interesting tidbit from the linked site you referenced above, regarding the origins of 440C:
"In 1904 French Scientist Leon Guillet undertook extensive research on many iron-chromium alloys.

Guillets work included studies on the composition of what would now be known as 410, 420, 442, 446 and 440-C. In 1906 Guillet went on to analyse iron-nickel-chrome alloys, which would now be considered the basics of the 300 series. However, while noting the chemical composition of his alloys, Guillet failed to acknowledge the potential corrosion resistance of his materials."
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Empire used it on knives for fishing in the 1920s.
I have stainless Empires, and they closed down 1929-1930.
 
Thomas Linton said:
440C existed in the 1920's? I thought it was first used post WWII.

SS invented by? http://www.bssa.org.uk/about_stainless_steel.php?id=31
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If you read the article that you linked it would seem between 1904 and 1906 Guillet was studying what is today known as 410, 420, 442, 446, 440C and the basics of 300 series stainless. I think thats pretty incredible. If you read more from all the sources, including Frank's, it seems the problem really was the heat treat as far as cutlery.

Just my interpretation. I find this very interesting.

Thanks to all that contributed and continue to do so.

Kevin
 
Nice Edit, David. I was wondering if you had found that article as interesting as I did (also how credible). I wasted my time paraphrasing while you copy and pasted :D
 
richstag said:
Nice Edit, David. I was wondering if you had found that article as interesting as I did (also how credible). I wasted my time paraphrasing while you copy and pasted :D
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I noticed that timing too. Looks like we were operating on the 'same page' there... :D

Regarding the 'credibility' of the article, I don't know enough to say. But, in some respects, I wouldn't be surprised. It seems to me, the alloy with the characteristics of (what's now called) 440C may have existed for a very long time, though I'm betting the actual '440C' moniker (AISI-440C) probably didn't get assigned to it until some later time. And on the 'AISI' (American Iron and Steel Institute) standards, here's something interesting:

(from site: http://www.steel.org/About AISI/History.aspx )

"Also in the '30s, it became apparent that the industry's technical terminology had become chaotic. The Institute came to grips with the problem, and out of its efforts came the AISI steel products manuals. They provided makers and users of steel with generally recognized definitions, descriptions and practices pertaining to the manufacture, chemistry, metallurgy and adaptability of steel products."
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So maybe the '440C' name was assigned by AISI, and if so, that might've come in the 1930s. Just speculating, but the above quote seems to hint at that.
 
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