How long should it take?

[benhar]

I finally got all the pieces of my Magna Guide in the mail, and tried it out on my old Swiss Army Knife. I'm having trouble getting the blade sharp and want to see if I'm doing something wrong or just need to stick with it longer.

I wouldn't call the blade abused before I started, but it definitely wasn't sharp. I used position 5, stuck a piece of zip-tie behind the blade to stick it out a little further, and marked the edge with a Sharpie. The markings were gone within a few strokes, and I tried to stay at it on one side until I got a burr, but I'm not sure how obvious the burr should be. Long story short each side of the blade was probably hit with the blue diafold around 100 times, then the red for a while, then the green. I can't say I'm impressed with the results. It's not as sharp as my Native which has never been sharpened after a few years of use, and certainly not as sharp as my ESEE 4. Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks

 

[BryFry]

It takes practice, so don't give up yet!

Sounds like you started out OK using good technique with the burr and Sharpie. Did you also use the Sharpie and work up a burr with the finer stones as well?
Sometimes when using a guided system like that, when you change to a different stone it may be slightly off from the setting of the previous one. Shouldn't be off by much, but still you may have to work that new grit up to the edge again.

You don't need to work up a huge burr, the slightest hint of one should do, but you want to be sure it forms along the entire edge. And I would say that on your final grit start using lighter and more even strokes as you finish up.

It is really hard to explain, but I have a technique of looking at the edge in a good light and can tell if it's were I want it to be or not. The way this works is that the edge bevel should look even all the way out to the end. If you are able to see a hair line glint of light at the very most outer edge of the bevel... then there is still room for improvement.
You want to try and make those two bevels meet in such a way that you cannot actually see where they meet with your naked eye. ....if that makes sense.

Also, do you have a strop? They do make a difference.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I think the biggest obstacle here, is the softness of the SAK's blade steel, vs the aggressiveness of the diamond. This combination makes it all too easy to create and wipe away the burr in a single pass. This means one might keep right on sharpening & grinding away, without ever detecting the burr. So, it seems as if it's never quite 'getting there'. This is real common with the SAK's steel, and also when sharpening small, thin blades of carbon steel, like 1095. These steels can feel almost literally 'buttery' on a diamond hone, because there's such a wide difference in hardness between the steel and the diamond. With these steels, I've had to remind myself that if it's taking too long to get sharp on diamond hones, I've likely gone way, way beyond where I should've stopped. Take just a pass or two at a time, and really watch the progress at the edge. Using a magnifier and very bright light is a big help with this. Very, very light pressure too, and check for the burr frequently.

I'd put the blue (coarse) Dia-Fold aside, and use only a Fine (red) or even EF (green), to slow the process a bit.

 

[benhar]

Thanks for the advice. I didn't use the sharpie after the first stone, but will try that. I haven't used a strop, I figured I'd move on to that after I was able to sharpen on the stones successfully.

I did wonder if the SAK steel was too soft. Regarding pressure, I tried to keep it light. In fact I tried not to put any downward force on the diafolds at all, just enough force to ensure contact on the blade edge. Could that be too little?

 

[BryFry]

I did wonder if the SAK steel was too soft. Regarding pressure, I tried to keep it light. In fact I tried not to put any downward force on the diafolds at all, just enough force to ensure contact on the blade edge. Could that be too little?

With flat stones you can use a reasonable amount of pressure, especially if you are setting a new bevel angle, but it's generally good practice to use less pressure as the edge and the grit you use become more refined. IMO.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thanks for the advice. I didn't use the sharpie after the first stone, but will try that. I haven't used a strop, I figured I'd move on to that after I was able to sharpen on the stones successfully.

I did wonder if the SAK steel was too soft. Regarding pressure, I tried to keep it light. In fact I tried not to put any downward force on the diafolds at all, just enough force to ensure contact on the blade edge. Could that be too little?

With this steel on diamond, I don't think there's any such thing as 'too little' for pressure. Any time I ask myself that same question, I usually make an effort to go even lighter. So long as you are maintaining flush contact, and the blade isn't skipping or bumping across the hone, that's enough pressure. Just enough to maintain control of the angle, in other words.

 

[LEGION 12]

I like guided systems but for small softer steel knives try setting your stones on a flat surface i use my coffee table on the edge on the right side im right handed give the knife 20 strokes with your coarses stone alternating sides . Your not trying to form a burr then check your edge bet its sharper i know this is freehanding but if you go slow like your slicing a off the top of your stone gently . This is how i do all my edges now dont even yous the guides anymore and it works great for me . But of course thats just me if they slide a little i just set them on a piece of leather .

 

[benhar]

Sorry to continue asking questions, but I have a few more. I tried sharpening a kitchen knife last night with only slightly better results, and really want to make sure I'm doing this correctly and have reasonable expectations.

First, should I be using multiple near-perpendicular strokes to maximize the blade "slicing" against the stone (similar to what the DMT manual shows), or is it better to make one sweeping movement across the length of the blade?

Second, what would be the best type of knife to learn on? It sounds like the SAK may not be the best bet, but I'm really hesitant to try it out on my Spyderco Native until I'm convinced I'm doing this right.

Finally, what would be the best litmus test for she sharpness of my kitchen knifes? I didn't get it shaving sharp, but having it that sharp probably wouldn't be appropriate anyway. Should I try the blade against my fingernail?

Thanks again.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Sorry to continue asking questions, but I have a few more. I tried sharpening a kitchen knife last night with only slightly better results, and really want to make sure I'm doing this correctly and have reasonable expectations.

First, should I be using multiple near-perpendicular strokes to maximize the blade "slicing" against the stone (similar to what the DMT manual shows), or is it better to make one sweeping movement across the length of the blade?

For the initial grinding of a new bevel, pretty much any stroke will do. At that stage, before the edge is apexed, it's all about grinding off lots of metal. Many like to use a back & forth 'scrubbing' stroke for this (I usually do). Once the new edge is apexed, I'll use edge-leading sweeping strokes (heel to tip), to even out the scratch pattern. Then do the same with the subsequent hones, all the way through the finish.

Second, what would be the best type of knife to learn on? It sounds like the SAK may not be the best bet, but I'm really hesitant to try it out on my Spyderco Native until I'm convinced I'm doing this right.

I think a simple kitchen knife of known decent steel quality is always a good 'practice subject'. If not that, then a mid-line pocket/fixed blade in carbon steel or one of the middle-range stainless steels (420HC, 440A/C, AUS-8, etc.) are also good. Try to find one with a similar blade size/thickness/profile as your SAK's blade, if possible. That'll help get your hands accustomed to the feel of the process, for the blade you want to sharpen.

Also, for practice's sake, use only a fine/ef diamond hone to start. Since you have the DMT EF (green), I'd practice with that one first. The finer grit won't be quite so aggressive, and that'll be a little more forgiving on the steel, while you're still trying to refine your technique. It's too easy to do a lot of damage in trying to 'practice' with a very coarse/aggressive hone. And the finer grit will slow the process a bit, which makes it easier to detect changes in your edge as you go.

Finally, what would be the best litmus test for she sharpness of my kitchen knifes? I didn't get it shaving sharp, but having it that sharp probably wouldn't be appropriate anyway. Should I try the blade against my fingernail?

My favorite test for any blade I sharpen, is to slice phonebook pages. The paper is thin, and folds/catches very easily on burrs/wires on the edge. This is a great way to look for these imperfections on an edge. When I cut the paper, I'm looking to slice cleanly and repeatedly through the paper, from heel to tip, without snagging in, or slipping off of the paper (slipping indicates the edge is blunt or otherwise not completely apexed). If the blade catches and folds the paper, look very closely to see where this happens on the edge. Slice very slowly, so you can more easily see where it catches. That's the place to look for a burr on the edge.

The 'fingernail test' is handy for looking for wire edges that are folded or leaning to one side or the other. I gently angle the blade to one side, and then the other, while gently touching it against the broad portion of my thumbnail. If the edge catches when leaning one way, but slips when angled the other way, that's a good indicator that a wire edge is present, and angled in the direction that the blade is slipping. If it slips in both directions, that usually indicates the edge isn't apexed (it's round/blunt). Conversely, if the blade catches in both directions, and all along the full length of the edge, that's a pretty good indicator the edge is in good shape.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

I tried sharpening a kitchen knife last night with only slightly better results...
First, should I be using multiple near-perpendicular strokes to maximize the blade "slicing" against the stone (similar to what the DMT manual shows), or is it better to make one sweeping movement across the length of the blade?

I found it's difficult to sharpen a long blade using narrow & short stone, overtime over-grind bands may develop. Making a sweeping stroke while keeping a consistent angle is servicable but not easy to do on edge recurve or belly.

Second, what would be the best type of knife to learn on? It sounds like the SAK may not be the best bet, but I'm really hesitant to try it out on my Spyderco Native until I'm convinced I'm doing this right.

Practice set bevel on cheap stuff is cost effective(420j, 440a-b, aluminum, wood - yep, wooden envelope blade) and fast. I always refine edge on real knives, get a good feel for diff steel & HT.

Finally, what would be the best litmus test for she sharpness of my kitchen knifes? I didn't get it shaving sharp, but having it that sharp probably wouldn't be appropriate anyway. Should I try the blade against my fingernail?

Slice phonebook/newsprint paper using heel to tip. Up a notch with push cut. Slice TP for a challenge.

 

[benhar]

I found my Native's EDC predecessor, a Buck Mayo Cutback, and practiced on it. Maybe not the best choice due to the ever-so-slight recurve, but otherwise probably the best I had for practicing. I got a bit impatient on the re-profiling (mainly due to a two-angle bevel at the tip from a previous error at free-handing), so I resorted to the scrubbing method, probably at a lot faster speed than I should have. By the time I finally got the new bevel set (except at the tip, where I gave up), I rushed through the other grits without worrying too much about the burr. The end result was pretty sharp, but didn't pop hairs or slice cleanly through paper consistently. Now that I have the angle set, I'll probably go back later with fresh patience and try to get it sharper, paying attention to the feel and finer details.

By the way, does the position of the rod with the guide loop make much difference? Meaning, should I try to always run it either along the bottom or top of the loop, or does it not make enough difference to matter?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I found my Native's EDC predecessor, a Buck Mayo Cutback, and practiced on it. Maybe not the best choice due to the ever-so-slight recurve, but otherwise probably the best I had for practicing. I got a bit impatient on the re-profiling (mainly due to a two-angle bevel at the tip from a previous error at free-handing), so I resorted to the scrubbing method, probably at a lot faster speed than I should have. By the time I finally got the new bevel set (except at the tip, where I gave up), I rushed through the other grits without worrying too much about the burr. The end result was pretty sharp, but didn't pop hairs or slice cleanly through paper consistently. Now that I have the angle set, I'll probably go back later with fresh patience and try to get it sharper, paying attention to the feel and finer details.

By the way, does the position of the rod with the guide loop make much difference? Meaning, should I try to always run it either along the bottom or top of the loop, or does it not make enough difference to matter?

For the most part, it doesn't matter too much. It's more important to be consistent, though. In other words, if you keep the rod bearing along the top of the loop (or the bottom), try to maintain it throughout the sequence for the best accuracy. Try not to 'bounce' the rod back & forth in there, so you'll therefore minimize any variation in the angle. Keep the pace slow and fully under control, and the pressure light, so it doesn't move around or flex the rod. That keeps the angle much more consistent, and the edges produced will reward you for it. When holding the clamp, I often loop a finger over the rod, behind the guide loop, so the rod stays in constant contact with the bottom of the guide loop. (Edit: Never mind the last sentence. That's what I do with my Lansky/Gatco setups, but not with the DMT. I don't hold it the same way, requires too many hands.)

You already know it, but I'll emphasize again to really watch for the burr. That really makes most of the difference, between hair-popping edges and something less than that. It's worth it to take your time, in the end.

 

[benhar]

I finally had success on making the Buck shaving sharp (at least somewhat). I payed very close attention to the burr, and that did make a huge difference. There's room for improvement though, as I'm still getting the hang of finding the burr at the lower grits. Regardless, I moved on to the Native, and am somewhat pleased with the results.

But as usual, I realized I have a couple more questions. First, I was surprised to see that I had to go to the lowest position on the aligner clamp (7) to evenly scrape the Sharpie off my Native's factory edge. Is that normal? I thought once you got to that point you were sharpening fillet knives and razors. I know the width of the blade matters too, but still...

Second, if the Native is my EDC pocket knife, should I consider making a micro-bevel, or call it a day after the final grit at the factory angle?

Thanks again for the help and patience. I've done my share of searching around, but getting answers to specific questions as I see things myself helps a lot.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

If your Native's factory edge was already that acute, I'd not worry about it. Use it and see how it holds up. If it's not as durable as you'd prefer, then a micro bevel might be a quick fix for that.