How many belts?

Here's the silly question of the day. Has anyone figured out how many belts they use making a knife? I'm assuming stock removal from a steel bar, and clearly the knife in question would make a big difference, as would 72" vs 48".

We refer to using a 'fresh belt' pretty often, so maybe the real question is "how many fresh belts do you apply per knife?"

I'm asking because I think it'll help me on my next belt order, and because I'm so cheap I have that bad habit of running em until I burn myself and just burnish the steel...

A second part of this question might be "what's your grit sequence, and at what grit do you do your heat treat?" Well, I guess that's two more questions.
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Dave Larsen
--
Love is said to be blind, but I know lots of fellows who can see twice as much in their sweethearts as I can.
-Josh Billings
-Armistead Maupin
 
Right now I'm (still) working on a fairly large order. The knives are 9" overall and 3/32" 440C. My grinder is 2 x72 variable. I grind 60 ceramic - 120 ceramic - 220 J weight - heat treat - 220 j weight - 400 j weight - 600 j weight - then depends on finish desired.

I get about 30 blades out of each ceramic grit, maybe 10 out of the j weight grits. This is for the blade only. I have found that you can grind with a relatively dull belt but you have to have fresh sharp belts for handles. I am using 40 or 50 grit AO belts (as available) for handles and 20 handles rough shaped is pushing it. All told, that works out to about 2 belts per knife.

My 2 cents

Rob!



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Rob Ridley
Ranger Original Handcrafted Knives
 
NickWheeler

NickWheeler

Joined
Dec 3, 1999
Messages
9,437
That's actually not silly at all, that's a great question!

I can't say that I have it figured out to the point that Rob does, but I can say for sure that ceramic is worth the price.

I used to just buy the el-cheap-o's from Industrial Abrasives and it seems like I would get 1 or 2 knives out of each belt. Not very good!

But with ceramic, I just keep using them and using them.

I'm a pretty firm believer in sharp...sharp everthing...drill bits, knives, BELTS. So I have stages that the belts get used in.

I have a 400 grit J weight Hermes belt that cleaned the grinds on 5 or 6 knives, then smoothed handle hardware, and now has been cut down into narrower belts for putting a rounded ricasso on daggers.

I grind 60 ceramic (or 50 sometimes), then 120 ceramic, and then send to Paul Bos. Upon receiving them back, I go back to 120, then usually either 240 ceramic, or right up to a 320 or 400. I find that the more blades I grind, the easier it is to "skip steps."

I sure said a lot of nothing here...
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Nick
 
Thanks for the input. Right away I'm convinced about ceramic belts. I found some at TKS in the $7 range, but all 72". Pretty much the same story at Tru Grit. I've known for a long time I need to grow up and get a 72" machine -- here's another good reason!
 
You can readily get 48 inch belts at any of the Knife Supply houses that you mentioned as well as Jantz, Koval, Sheffield, Pops, K&G, etc.
The only problem with 48 inch belts is that they don't last as long as 72 inch and I don't know of too many folks that hollow grind on a 48 inch belt. Remember that flat grinding is generally tougher on belts than hollow grinding.
 
I was rambling, but still left out some stuff
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I didn't meant to knock the Industrial Abrasives without a little digression. I still use them in the higher grits, and their 36 grit for handle roughing. I know they're cheap, but it's hard to beat 24 belts for about $45.

The trizacts are really nice for the higher grits. I order those and the ceramics from Tru-Grit, and/or Super-grit.

I haven't ever tried silicon carbide belts.

I hear that this Pop's guy is good to order belts from, but I think with shipping it's cheaper for me to order from Tru-Grit in CA.

Also, I didn't mean to sound like the Hermes J weight is ceramic, it's not. I just meant those are great belts with a lot of uses.

Basically, order so many belts that you can't believe how much money you spent on them, and you will almost have as many as you need
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Nick
 
Now -that- I believe!
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Perhaps I'll have taken the 72" plunge before I have to buy any more belts, and will be able to get a few ceramics in the next order.

Interesting reminder re flat grind vs hollow grind, too, CL. I've always tendeded toward the long flats, and don't see any design changes coming, so will have to keep that in mind.

One thing I always find is that a sharp belt is easier to control, and I can't help thinking belts are cheaper than my time -- at least up to a certain point!

I know that part of my problem is my grinder at 1/3 hp doesn't allow for much honking down on the platen. It's more a "whistle while you work" kind of machine. So I've been looking at those 5 hp motors with a greedy eye...

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Dave Larsen
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Love is said to be blind, but I know lots of fellows who can see twice as much in their sweethearts as I can.
-Josh Billings
 
Ok Guys I am new to this too. I bought my last batch of belts from Industrial Abrasives. I finished with 320 then hand rubbed. I figured that the less grits I use the more belts I would have in each grit. I start with 60 then go to 220 then heat treat. I start again with 60, then 220 and last 320 then hand rub. Gee I think I just repeated myself. I am on a budget so I agree when I found out about Ind. Abrasives I was thrilled but after rehandling 1 knife twice and building 2 more my belts are damn near gone. I am not sure if I have enough for another 1. Plus when the blade gets warm and I do my water cool some of that water transfers back to the belt then I end up with a belt that has a ballooned spot in the center. Are these ceramic belts worth the money and can I get them for a 4x36. Yeah I know I need a 2x72 but that may come later this coming year. Too many other things to pay for.

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" I am a shootist."
Clay Allison
" Does this mean we are bladists?"
Vaquero57
McAlpin Bladesmithing
 
Dave, I shape out the blade with a 36 grit belt @ around 5700 spm (this belt loves nuckles, ouch). The only time I use a work rest is for this step, because you can really push the steel into the wheel. I then grind the whole blade to where it looks like it was precision ground down to 220. I do the master bevel next with 50,120,220,then heat treat. Leave a little bit of steel at the top of your grind to take off when you get it back from heat treat. Back from heat treat 120,220,400,A16,A6. Do not put any water on the A16 or A6 (Trizac belts) and run them as fast as you safely can. Then polish. I like the gold ceramic belts better than the red ones, seem to last longer. The trizac belts will build up a lot of heat VERY fast so be careful. Pop Knives is one of the best guys you will ever deal with. Straight shooting guy. Wish I could find his number for you. Almost forgot, 2X72 I think is the best belt size to use. On my regular(Non Trizac and Ceramic) belts I use Klingspore and usually use about 2 belts per knife. Thats replacement cost I am speaking of there. Good luck with it. Mark Hazen
 
A little late, but better than never! My general rule is one set of belts per knife, especially if it's a custom order. The same rule applies if I have serveral orders to punch out, like the Xmas orders I just finished for this year. Your saving lots of time using fresh belts. Yes, you can get several knives out of one set of belts, and I like most, use my belts till there is nothing left. I keep reusing my belts on non-order knives for knives I'm making when I having nothing but time (during the slow parts of the year)and trying to put my imagination to use. But, if you are serious about pushing out some knives, then here is a suggestion. Try Norton Super Hoggers in 60 grit for your main, initial grinding. Then instead of 3M Trizact belts, purchase some Norax belts from True Gritor oe whoever else sells them. They are a bit cheaper and just as good! Now get ready for this, you won't believe it but please try. Start with anything 60 grit, (like I mentioned above) then go A30=360 grit, then jump to A16=1200 grit, then jump to A6=2000 grit. Sounds unbelievable, but once you try it, you'll love all the time you will save and you won't miss one minute of all the hand work your putting in. I just recently discovered this and I promise you'll LOVE it!! My .02's worth. Hope this helps. Regards, Bearheart
 
I can't come up with a number, but I can tell you what I've decided to do. When a belt gets dull to the point where it is not doing what I want it to do I throw it away. I have good experiences with sharp belts and bad experiences with dull belts. Drill bits are pretty much the same thing. I figure my time and sanity are worth something. Believe it or not I'm ordering more belts tomorrow morning.
 
The Industrial Abrasives deal makes belts pretty cheap, and I've been thinking that anything I can do to save my time (that I can also afford
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) is worth doing. To that end, I decided tonight from now on I'm buying precision ground stock. I've spent a lot of hours and belts getting these four blanks down to a flat surface, and I suspect it'd be cheaper in the long run to just buy the steel ground clean.

Also in the same vein, I really like Bearheart's deal of going quickly to high grit, I'm going to try this. Bearheart, when you say "one set of belts" I take it that's four, one per grit. Safe bet?

All this brand preference is leaving me a bit batty, as I've always tried to find the most economic solution, which often simply means "generic". I'm hoping to gather enough numbers from this thread (I think I'm well on the way) to start to apply dollars of belts, or maybe inches of belts, to a knife. This appeals to the business guy in me. A quick and dirty sum says ceramic belts etc might be cheaper overall. I think it's about time for a spreadsheet...
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Dave Larsen
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The greatest prayer is patience
-Buddha
 
Actually Dave I was thinking of switching to 1095 from Jantz as it is a little cheasper. If you get the right thickness then it shouldn't be so hard to flat pane to true. With precision ground stock you still get slight bends in the steel sometimes and I flat grind to true anyways cause you just never know what the naked eye cannot see. It is a good practice even with precision ground stock. The last 2 bars of 0-1 I have got had slight warpage from shipping or storage or something so after I get the blank profiled the first thign I do is flat plane to make sure It is flat. Surely with regular bar stock assuminf you are not trying to reach a certain thickness then it should not be any different to remove the dulle surface of them. Anyone want to tell me if ZI am right.

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" I am a shootist."
Clay Allison
" Does this mean we are bladists?"
Vaquero57
McAlpin Bladesmithing
 
I know how you feel Dave, about all the hoopla on different belts. If you have a brand you like and are happy with what you are paying, then stick with them. If you keep hopping around and trying different makes of belts, then you will keep getting different results. But to be consistent, you must use new belts for a fair test. The new Norax belts have a triangle surfacing grit to them. They are very aggressive. Like I said in the previous post, jumping from 60 to 360 grit seems a big jump. But, you will freak when you see that when you jump from 60 to 360 grit that it is shining like crazy with only a few passes. Then go to the 1200 grit, and you may want to stop right there! Different finishes for different knives and tastes. I personally hate mirror finish (too damn shiny!!!) But I have orders that require it, so I finish up with the 2000 grit, and then go to wet cardboard, and then buff like the dickens. I guess they're worried about finding the knife in the dark? HEHEHE Really, mostly the folks who want mirror polish are more concerned with rust and Botchulism (sp) ok, takes two points off my paper (I graduated already). And the answer to your question is yes, four belts per knife as a general rule. But, I'll go ahead and interject here that the 1200 and 2000 grit belts will go through several knives before wearing out. I just follow my own general rule because here is what can happen. If you are jumping grits so drastically (which works real well) You don't want to go to the next grit with a worn belt. It will cause blemishes ie scratches because of wear on the belt from prior use. You could have caught a spot somewhere on the belt by hoggin a little to hard or whatever. All of this is to reduce time and produce knives! Hope this helps.
 
Guys, please dont try to push the life of belts by pushing harder into the wheel. I did that, which pushed the tool rest below the mid of the contact wheel, wheel grabbed the blade and my thumb went right into the 0 grit belt on the wheel, taking a good chunk of my thumbnail and skin right off.

I get 36 or 40 grit 977 hoggers, 80 grit and 120 grit 977, then 220, regalites, then trizact 320, 600. i go all the way up with these belts, using the 36 and 80 most as rhey work the fastest. Afer 600, I hand sand to see where i missed and do it again. Then to Ht, then hand sand again. I hate grinding after HT!
 
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