How much better can I do?

T

ToddM

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Oct 2, 1998
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So for many years now I've been following essentially the same sharpening routine. I'll use a lansky to put on a 25-20 degree setting inclusive edge on (probably not accurate due to the blade sticking out from the clamp) usually down to the medium or fine stone then use an old spyderco sharpmaker (only one angle choice) medium or fine stones (depending on intended use) to maintain the edge every few days. The knives I sharpen don't seem to have any issues being shaving sharp, and I don't think I'm having issues with wire edges etc. but it would be nice if they held their edge longer. The other thing I notice is over time I tend to round the tips, that could be me just going too fast with the lansky grinding the tip down.

I don't do any stropping, or play with significantly different angles, back/micro bevels, etc. So perhaps even with my current tools I could do a better job.

I was just curious reading all these posts about guys getting knives seemingly almost impossibly sharp with the Apex/WE systems how much better they really do than what I'm doing now, or is it more than you have more flexibility on angles, stones etc. ?

The same is true for the Work Sharp KO, I've always stayed away from power grinders, but it seems like lots of guys are getting really good results with it, though I think for me I'd use it more for my kitchen/lesser knives.

Thanks in advance
 
Well so long as you arent having any of the issues that you mentioned than to get more edge longevity you need to look at what steels your sharpening and what angle your sharpening at. 25dps is still pretty steep so that shouldnt be causing you any problems... Which leads me to wonder what steels your sharpening. Some steels just dont hold an edge at all. You can try adding a coarse microbevel and see if that helps.
 
Staying under 20 dps will probably make a large improvement in your current edge performance, once you take a edge to >20 dps edge retention starts a dramatic drop and you begin to fight wedging and binding due to poor bevel geometry.

Your current method involves using two systems made by different companies, while this may bring you useable results I would bet your bevel looks "busy". If you like the precision of a guided system the EP would be a solid upgrade and would improve upon your current edges. You also have the option of freehand which allows you to have no limitations and gives YOU the sharpening skill which can be used with anything. All methods can work just depends on which direction you want to go.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Staying under 20 dps will probably make a large improvement in your current edge performance, once you take a edge to >20 dps edge retention starts a dramatic drop and you begin to fight wedging and binding due to poor bevel geometry.
Click to expand...

This is a big factor. If you can get down to 15 or so per side, compared to your current 20+, you will see a noticeable improvement in cutting ability and retention, even if you change nothing else.
 
That's something I need to do a better job of is actually measuring the "real" angle when using the lansky as opposed to just using the 17-20-25 slots because I'm guessing they are shallower than the slot indicates since I usually have 1/2-3/4" of blade from the end of the clamp.
 
And if you are rounding off the tips its likely because your are moving the stone past the end of the tip, this tends to cause roundness. You should stop the stroke before the stone leaves the tip. And maybe try a bit lighter stroke.
 
As those before me have said...it is all about how you do it and what you are doing it to.
Some steels just don't hold an edge for long during use. It also depends on what the use is...I work in a paper mill and I can flatten the cutting edge/belly of a knife...and I mean flatten...in just a few minutes of skinning down through layers of paper...it's amazing to see...This is using a knife with a softer steel...a knife with a much harder steel will just dull.

Practice, practice, practice.
Learn how the different steels of your knives respond to sharpening.
I have a little spiral bound notebook I keep in my sharpening box. When I get a new knife and decide where it sits best in the Lansky holder. I trace the blade shape on a page and mark where I seat it in the blade clamp. This way I get consistent results with less effort. Eventually you remember where you place it but until then it is a nice, easy aid.

Edge sharpness also depends on how far you take it with the stones/hones you are using. If you only have a coarse and medium Arkansas stones you will only achieve a level of sharpness allowed by the finest stone. The finer the stone/hone and the more effort you put into it the better the edge...but as good as that edge may be it will dull over time and especially use...stropping it after use is generally required to bring it back but if used hard enough may require a complete resharpening...hard use tools require constant maintenance...
 
Kai Winters said:
As those before me have said...it is all about how you do it and what you are doing it to.
Some steels just don't hold an edge for long during use. It also depends on what the use is...I work in a paper mill and I can flatten the cutting edge/belly of a knife...and I mean flatten...in just a few minutes of skinning down through layers of paper...it's amazing to see...This is using a knife with a softer steel...a knife with a much harder steel will just dull.

Practice, practice, practice.
Learn how the different steels of your knives respond to sharpening.
I have a little spiral bound notebook I keep in my sharpening box. When I get a new knife and decide where it sits best in the Lansky holder. I trace the blade shape on a page and mark where I seat it in the blade clamp. This way I get consistent results with less effort. Eventually you remember where you place it but until then it is a nice, easy aid.

Edge sharpness also depends on how far you take it with the stones/hones you are using. If you only have a coarse and medium Arkansas stones you will only achieve a level of sharpness allowed by the finest stone. The finer the stone/hone and the more effort you put into it the better the edge...but as good as that edge may be it will dull over time and especially use...stropping it after use is generally required to bring it back but if used hard enough may require a complete resharpening...hard use tools require constant maintenance...
Click to expand...

I don't agree that you're limited by the grit of your stone. It just makes a more polished edge that is better for some tasks. Even on a medium hone, if you spend a little extra time at light pressures refining the apex it can get extremely sharp. It's just a matter of whether you want a polished or toothy edge. From your description I would guess a polished edge works better for you, but it's not really a "finer grit equals more sharp" kind of thing. I like slicing cuts so I prefer a toothy edge.

Todd, the furter the spine of the blade is from the very edge of the clamp, the more obtuse the angle is actually. So if you're holding the edge that far into the clamp and trying a 25 degree per side, you might actually be doing 30 per side. With that in mind I would try to aim for 17 degrees per side. That way you should be able to get in that 20 degree and under figure.

I also don't really agree that anything greater than 20 degrees per side is just a wedge of a knife though. I don't know why people are throwing around suggestions like this... It seems like a few years ago, everyone advocated at least 25 degrees per side and suggested anything over that was too much. Now it's 20 degrees and I'm sure pretty soon it will be people suggesting they all be 15 degrees per side and that anything more is just a big wedge.

Take a piece of paper and fold it over from one corner to the next to make a 45 degree angle. Now fold that one to 22.5 degrees and look at the shape. That's what John Juranitch reccomends--and if he thinks >20 is okay I'd trust his experience. Not to mention the countless others who reccomend this same thing.

The best way to find the appropriate angle for a knfie is by trial and error. Thin it out until it stops holding the edge how you like it, and then go back to the last angle that worked. There you go, you just figured out the optimal edge angle for you. :) This is why freehanding is really nice, since you can pretty much set to whatever angle you want whether the swee-spot is 15 degrees per side or 18 or 20.
 
That was my bad on wording, by 1/2-3/4" from the end of the clamp I meant that the sharpened edge was sticking that far past the clamp, reducing the angle. I do need to measure that though, I've always thought that the lansky angles were correct at the end of the clamp, so if there was any blade past the end you'd be effectively reducing the listed angle. I bought a newer version of the sharpmaker recently, and gave my old one to the girlfriend, and honestly I really miss my old one :grumpy:. The new one has the 30/40 degree angles, but my old one was 45 deg. My effective lansky edges must be in that 20-22 degree range, because the old 45 degree sharpmaker worked great on all my knives, but with the new one the 40 degree is too shallow by just a touch for about half of them.

Usually I stop at the medium sharpmaker stone, but lately I've been going to the fine, as you said it seems better for some things, but I think overall for my use I seem to have to touch it up faster than if I stop at the medium stone and get some microserrations. That's one thing I should read up on, I've never messed with trying to put apex/back bevel etc. on a blade.

One thing I liked about my system, was speed, once I had the main angle set on the lansky I could go months just doing touch up on the sharpmaker every week or so. I'm not sure I'd change that process even if I bought an extremely expensive kit just because I don't want to take the extra time to use a lansky, edgopro, WE type system frequently.

I've been tempted to try out the Sharp Works Ken Onion to replace the lansky to quickly get me to say a medium grit edge with more angle options and then use the sharpmaker for maintenance. I also like that it doesn't rely on an arc like the lansky so the angle isn't changing over the blade curve and doing blades without a nice flat spot on them to clamp to is challenging. That and I remember years ago everyone saying that power grinding a blade was bad for it due to the heat build up, but perhaps these new system don't get as hot. I've never used one though so it's angle guide might have it's own complications.
 
KennyB...I understand what you are saying and agree...I could have said what I said better to reflect what you said...
 
Sharpness has nothing to do with coarse or fine stones. You can get any knife to it's maximum sharpness with lower grits. The higher the grit the more refined/polished the edge becomes :)
 
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