How much bliss is there in ignorance about steels?

[Pristerognathus]

Lurking around here I read topics on how the average joe ignorant about anything but "stainless steel" and maybe "carbon steel" will not notice any difference between cheap and expensive steels. I am so far only familiar with cheap stainless kitchen steel and 1095 which I have used for chopping trees and cutting tape and paper.

I see nice prices on knives made in 440 (meaning 440a I hear, rather than 440c which is said to be superior) and I hear that it's a crap steel.

I'm not gonna spend all free time cutting cardboard so do you think I will notice any difference in performance with 440a compared to the others? I'm also thinking about buying a tiny vg10 folder.

Btw the angry smiley was not meant to be there.

 

[joshuaharman]

It's a slippery slope

The answer is, unfortunately, "it depends." If you do a lot of food prep, you would likely notice a difference in edge retention between 440a and a knife made with a higher quality steel (all things being equal)--you'll need to sharpen it less and it will take a good edge. There is a reason (to some extent) why some steels are pricier than others. Problem is, all things AREN'T equal: there is also the issue of heat treat that you need to be concerned with. Improperly heat treated S30V might produce a blade with worse overall characteristics than a "lower quality" steel with a fantastic heat treat. I am personally fed up with ALL of my kitchen knives--they are all crappy steel with a crappy heat treat. Some won't take an edge despite my best efforts and none will hold a decent edge more than a few uses. I can't seem to convince my wife (who does far less cooking than I do) that we really ought to invest in a few really good knives. "A knife is a knife" she says, while inside, a little part of me dies...

 

[Insipid Moniker]

In a fixed blade I'd probably stick with 1095. Properly treated, it's a great all around performer. For a folder I'd spend a few more dollars and get 440c, AUS8 or 420hc. All are quite respectable, and can be found for under $30. In use I notice a significant difference in edge retention between various steels or even the same steel with a different heat treat. I own AUS8 blades that outperform at least one of the S30V knives I have.

 

[Ankerson]

Lurking around here I read topics on how the average joe ignorant about anything but "stainless steel" and maybe "carbon steel" will not notice any difference between cheap and expensive steels. I am so far only familiar with cheap stainless kitchen steel and 1095 which I have used for chopping trees and cutting tape and paper.

I see nice prices on knives made in 440 (meaning 440a I hear, rather than 440c which is said to be superior) and I hear that it's a crap steel.

I'm not gonna spend all free time cutting cardboard so do you think I will notice any difference in performance with 440a compared to the others? I'm also thinking about buying a tiny vg10 folder.

Btw the angry smiley was not meant to be there.

It will depend on how you use your knives really so what I am saying is that there isn't an answer that will fit all.

 

[Bob W]

It really depends on the knife, IMO. If you're cutting cardboard all day with a 4" tactical knife, you'll certainly notice the difference between 440a and ATS-34 (for examples). But for a small pocketknife that gets used only occasionally for light-duty tasks, 440a seems well-suited for that, especially if corrosion resistance is important or budget is an issue. 440a, if treated properly, can have a Rockwell hardness of 57, which isn't bad.

Maybe some folks can tell the difference between 440C, ATS-34, VG10, and BG42 (etc., etc., etc.). But I can't.

IMO, stay clear of the very lowest grade stainless steels. "Surgical Stainless", 420J, AUS4... Not only are the steels too soft for a decent knife blade, but it's an indicator that the rest of the knife is probably very cheaply made as well.

--------------

Perhaps what you are really looking for is recommendations for a specific knife considering your style preference, budget, and intended uses?

 

[joshuaharman]

Once you start buying nicer steel with a great heat treat, it's hard to go back...

 

[ArfinGreebly]

I have a number of knives made of "surgical steel."

Some of them are "steel in name only" while others are the real deal.

Partly I find that the origins of the knife will same much about the steel, even if the label doesn't.

Any more, "surgical steel" is a pleasant, buzzword compliant, comforting word that says "shiny!" to the buying public, and has little semantic value beyond that.

I do, however, have a couple of dramatic examples of the vast difference between one "surgical" steel and another.

I have a Bowie knife reproduction that was made in Pakistan, and the steel could probably survive prying open a car door. Holding an edge, on the other hand, isn't something it does well. I have another, very different, Bowie reproduction that was commissioned by a fellow trying to produce a more historically accurate version, and the steel (also "surgical") is somewhat better, and it will actually hold an edge, but durability and retention is mediocre.

I have kitchen knives made in China that were declared to be "surgical" steel. Edge retention is decidedly "meh" on most of them. The Japanese "surgical" steel knives in the kitchen are way better. And the Swiss and American knives in the kitchen are bestest.

In short, most of my encounters with "surgical" steel have been uninspiring.

Now let's go to the other end of that scale.

At the beginning of 2008, I found a stash of Normark American Hunter folding knives at a sporting good store, which knives had been in their inventory for more than 14 years. I did a hasty photo spread of the first one after I got it home and discovered what I really had. (Photo spread here.)

The package had this marketing blurb:

The American Hunter™ by Normark is the latest development in our fine line of knives. The textured soft grip handle offers a secure and comfortable grip. Its surgical steel blade offers the sharpest edge available. A unique safety lock results in a handle designed for power and leverage. A high grain leather sheath keeps knife safely secured.

The so-called surgical steel in this instance is actually a variety of Sandvik 12c27, a very good knife steel with very good durability and edge retention properties when properly hardened. And, as it happens, the Swedes have been at this a long time, and have steels and edges down to an art.

I have other knives of this pattern made by the same outfit (no, not Normark, they're only the OEM badge, the maker is EKA out of Eskilstuna) from a later time frame. Same knife. Same steel. Only sometime in the last ten years they decided that "surgical steel" was a semantically null marketing term, and started listing the actual steel.

Of course, once the idea caught on that reputable manufacturers specify the actual steel, the new buzzword became "440 steel" (or occasionally "400 class steel") without any clarification regarding the actual steel grade (440A, 440C, etc.) and no insight into the heat treat beyond a vague "hardened" somewhere in the description.

For myself, I've now become this picky, uber anal, pretentious steel snob when I shop for cutlery. I've discovered it's not how one wins friends at the knife counter.

Consequently, if I see something new, and the question "what can you tell me about this knife?" doesn't yield a satisfactory answer, I chase it down on line rather than pestering a clerk who really can't be expected to cater to snobs.

In my "surgical steel" tale above, the primary difference in quality related directly to two things: the country of origin and the actual manufacturer. I can generally trust what comes out of Sweden, Switzerland, Japan, Germany, France (!), Argentina, and the USA. And some brands is gooder than others.

Spending too much time on knife (and gun) boards has helped me learn which brands and countries of origin are most likely to yield the best quality in steel, heat treatment, and edge grind.

Nowadays, I try to confine my purchases to trusted brands, or brands trusted by people that I trust. I have several boxes of knives that were largely experimental acquisitions, ranging from "ick" to "meh" to "good" and "awesome." Any more I try to confine myself to the good and awesome brands.

 

[themandylion]

The "best" steels I have are 154CM and N690Co.

I have no problem with AUS-8 or 14C28N. Even 440C is fine. I also have a Böker with 440A, and I'm happy with it.

People desire super steels. They don't "need" them. And that's perfectly fine, just like people can buy a base model Ford and meet their needs, but desire a Lexus or BMW.

I'm rather fond of the idea of being able to sharpen blades without having to use Mohs 10 equipment exclusively. And paying a major premium for the "privilege."

So, judge by your own experience and purchase according to your own budget.

 

[res1cue]

Lurking around here I read topics on how the average joe ignorant about anything but "stainless steel" and maybe "carbon steel" will not notice any difference between cheap and expensive steels. I am so far only familiar with cheap stainless kitchen steel and 1095 which I have used for chopping trees and cutting tape and paper.

I see nice prices on knives made in 440 (meaning 440a I hear, rather than 440c which is said to be superior) and I hear that it's a crap steel.

I'm not gonna spend all free time cutting cardboard so do you think I will notice any difference in performance with 440a compared to the others? I'm also thinking about buying a tiny vg10 folder.

Btw the angry smiley was not meant to be there.

Depends how much you use your knife and how much you like a sharp knife. The difference between something like VG10 and 440A is very very apparent even when I was just starting to collect.

But there is bliss in ignorance: one of my good buddies was talking about a boker he just bought, and how it featured "new imported AUS8" which is a brand new and rare Japanese supersteel.

I didn't say anything about it, and he is very happy with his new knife! :thumbup:

 

[unit]

IDK about bliss, but there is a lot of potential for ignorance.

No offense to anyone, but so much of what you hear/read reported about steel performance is HIGHLY subjective and potentially based on limited experience in highly uncontrolled environments.

Often times the design of the tool will more than make up for subtle differences in the steel used (within limits).

To say that another way, the greatest steel in the world could be made into a very poor performing blade. Additionally, a maker may use a fairly basic steel with great care/craftsmanship to produce a very good performing knife.

 

[Gator97]

I can definitely tell the difference during cutting when using 5-10 per side edge vs. 20+ edges lots of factory knives come with. Anyone can, unless they have some motor/nervous disorder.
I'm not so sure about "don't need no super steel" moto. Normally, why would you want a knife that(for the same person and job) has to have a thicker edge or needs more sharpening, or both... Ok, budget issues are a separate problem, but making broad statements like people don't need super steels, so let's stick to 100 year old alloys is hardly a solution.
If you use a knife, you obviously want better performance out of it. And steels are not yet at the levels (as far as edges go) to test limits of human abilities...

 

[res1cue]

To say that another way, the greatest steel in the world could be made into a very poor performing blade. Additionally, a maker may use a fairly basic steel with great care/craftsmanship to produce a very good performing knife.

Agreed. :thumbup: Buck's 420HC is a great example of this.

 

[bdmicarta]

IDK about bliss, but there is a lot of potential for ignorance.

No offense to anyone, but so much of what you hear/read reported about steel performance is HIGHLY subjective and potentially based on limited experience in highly uncontrolled environments.

Often times the design of the tool will more than make up for subtle differences in the steel used (within limits).

To say that another way, the greatest steel in the world could be made into a very poor performing blade. Additionally, a maker may use a fairly basic steel with great care/craftsmanship to produce a very good performing knife.

I agree- the steel chemistry is just a part of it, the heat treatment and blade geometry are also important.

WRT folders and mass-produced fixed blade knives, I suspect that most makers use a range of steels that are appropriate to the price range of the product. For instance you won't find a cheap knife with S30V and you won't find an expensive knife with 420. But trying to decide between 2 different products only on the basis of one having 154 and the other having S30V might be too shortsighted. So you could pick from a manufacturer and price range that you are interested in and not pay so much attention to the steel that they use. On the low end I think it is worthwhile to make sure that at least some known steel is used, vs. what they might try to pass off as "surgical steel", which doesn't tell you anything.

In the case of some knives you would have the choice between stainless and carbon steel, and you then have to decide which is better for your intended uses. For instance knives like the big Becker knives are frequently made in carbon steel but some variants are available in stainless steel. If you wish to use the knife as a chopper and a pry bar then you probably want carbon steel, if you intend to use it more for slicing and use it near salt water then you might be better off with stainless steel and just be careful not to abuse the knife as a pry bar.

 

[Ankerson]

I can definitely tell the difference during cutting when using 5-10 per side edge vs. 20+ edges lots of factory knives come with. Anyone can, unless they have some motor/nervous disorder.
I'm not so sure about "don't need no super steel" moto. Normally, why would you want a knife that(for the same person and job) has to have a thicker edge or needs more sharpening, or both... Ok, budget issues are a separate problem, but making broad statements like people don't need super steels, so let's stick to 100 year old alloys is hardly a solution.
If you use a knife, you obviously want better performance out of it. And steels are not yet at the levels (as far as edges go) to test limits of human abilities...

The problem is that MOST of those that say they don't need a super steel are only thinking about budget issues and not performance and have never been in the same room with a super steel much less ever used one.

That's were most of the bad info is coming from.

Then add on the Urban Legends of Mythical Performance (ALL COMPLETE BS) of certian steels and there we have it.

A lot of that comes from the actual knives and design that it does from the steel itself, or should I say the knives perform because of what they are than what the steel is because they are so well designed for the tasks at hand... CUSTOMS....

BS can't replace Alloy Content period no matter what steel it is or who did the Heat Treating, all things being equal.

There is a huge difference in what is just good enough and what real high performance really is.

If just good enough was the answer then all of us would still be using whatever steel was used back over 3000 years ago.

 

[Gator97]

Yeah, that's an interesting part, when one of those "good old steel"-s is compared to any super steels, for some reason it is implied that former has top notch HT, and later must have bad HT. I don't get why such comparisons even take place, it's like comparing still working old machine with the new, but broken one and deciding old is better...
Is someone specifically ordering super steel knives with bad HT? Of course not. I guess one has to have at least some argument to make old steel look better compared to those super alloys somehow, besides price that is.

 

[Ankerson]

Yeah, that's an interesting part, when one of those "good old steel"-s is compared to any super steels, for some reason it is implied that former has top notch HT, and later must have bad HT. I don't get why such comparisons even take place, it's like comparing still working old machine with the new, but broken one and deciding old is better...
Is someone specifically ordering super steel knives with bad HT? Of course not. I guess one has to have at least some argument to make old steel look better compared to those super alloys somehow, besides price that is.

Exactly correct.

They tend to slant it the way they want for (Enter Real reason we never find out).....

Or they are trying to sell something and (Enter Steel Here) is what they work with.