How much does “Hand Made” affects our perception?

Patrice Lemée

Patrice Lemée

Joined
Aug 13, 2002
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What got me thinking about this is a video link of an EDM machine doing an intricate cutout.
It took maybe 10 minutes to do and it was perfect with fines details that, no matter the time spent or the talent level, I am not even sure could be done by hand.

But as nice as it is, when I look at it I still see a machine made piece of work. It has a “plastic” beauty but no “soul”. It is a question of perception because if I look at the same piece knowing that it was “hand made”, it becomes more beautiful to me, almost alive. Of course there is the whole thing about what really constitutes “hand made” and how much machinery can be used before it can't be called that anymore. There are probably as many opinions about that as there are folks on here so I don't want to start a debate.

Am I the only one who's vision of beauty is influenced by the hands on time spent making something and the talent needed to make it?
 
Beauty is, of course, in the eye of the beholder.

IMHO, humans are a tool-using species. To distinguish between degrees of automation in the use of the tools is to miss the point of the aesthetic question. Design is where aesthetics come into play. Hand-makers may arguably have a more finely-tuned sense of design than a CAD programmer. However, it's important to understand that the CAD programmer doesn't produce ugly knives because he uses CAD... he produces ugly knives because he doesn't speak the the design language of knives fluently.
 
I think the imperfections in a hand made, blood sweat n tears piece is what's appealing. Something made by mathematics and machines can be interesting but not worth my hard earned cash
 
The hand made imperfections are exactly what make a knife unique and interesting I think. I do appreciate the CNC/CAD designed stuff too though. I just love knives I guess. The difference though is a true handmade piece will never be duplicated exactly so you always get a one of a kind. You have got to love that. :)
 
A square hole is a square hole. Only because a video was posted does anybody know. Not sure how a hand fit guard is visually different than a machine fit?

I am interested and a bit disappointed in this discussion (not just this time but all the previous times also). I was just discussing with a friend some beautiful woodwork. Woodworkers use/employ every manner of jig/fixture for precision or else 4 legs won't sit on the floor, doors won't close, etc... Nobody talks about that or is interested; it's still considered handmade.

Now manufactured bevels are a different story. IMHO the soul of a handmade knife is the bevel, heat treat, and handle.
 
like the rest of you, I like all kinds of knives. Mass produced included.
the only ones that I find really interesting, hence my involvement in this forum, are those made by individuals.
HOW they make knives is far less relevant to me than whether they've successfully achieved their vision or not.

To illustrate using an example, I love Todd Begg's knives AND I love Wolfgang Loerchner's knives. Both men have a solid vision and artistic interpretation of what they want to make, but chose completely different paths to get there. Both are makers/designers of handmade/custom knives, but one uses state of the art machinery, while the other uses primarily hand tools. It's all good.

ps. 'handmade' in my mind does not give permission for a maker to be sloppy, and I have no interest in mistakes and imperfections. If and when they are small enough, I learn to live with them.
 
David Sharp said:
A square hole is a square hole. Only because a video was posted does anybody know. Not sure how a hand fit guard is visually different than a machine fit?
Click to expand...

Sorry David, I agree with you about the square hole. I should have been clearer about the video. It was an intricate cutout of a cross. I am talking more about the artistic than the mechanical part. Although some mechanics are very artistic.

Lorien, that it why I said that this is almost an impossible discussion. Todd's knives, although relying more on machinery, are still very labor intensive, artistic and done by a talented man who has developed a very high skill level.
Take some of the knives Nathan (the Machinist) makes. If you showed me the finished knife by someone unknown and told me that it was machine made I would say nice! Show me the same knife, knowing it is from Nathan, knowing (sometimes because of a WIP) the amount of work and the very complicated and numerous steps needed as well as the artistic side of the machinist trade and my reaction will be Amazing!

But even if it may be an impossible discussion, it is still fun to see everyone's points of view.
Thanks for participating guys. :thumbup:
 
I want high quality with no compromises.

There are many ways to get there, honesty and integrity are key.



On a personal level I am just as impressed with CNC work as anything else. If I was given a $150,000 CNC machine I'd have one big paperweight because I have no clue how to even run it!

I say find out what you enjoy and run with it. I am open to all techniques and feel that can only make my work better.

If you gave most people a turnkey knife shop they wouldn't make anything better than they could with files and sandpaper. If you gave the files and paper to a true pro they could turn out something very impressive!



I used to be way into cutting stones. The guys at the very top are using an array of machines and jigs to get the job done. Give me their setup and I'd just turn out the same stuff as always.

Think about sculpture too, there are many ways to do it. Air chisel vs hammer and chisel? It still depends on the artist. As an observer does the process even matter or is it the sculpture itself that you enjoy?
 
Hand made is a rather loosely phrased word to be honest.

Machines at some point do come in play for many. In your avatar. Your using a machine to grind the blade of a knife. The steel you bought was rolled through machines to a set thickness, holes drilled with a drill press etc.

Machines are there to help, but it's the added hands on work and finishing touches that go into the final product

DON
 
Roadracer_Al said:
IMHO, humans are a tool-using species. To distinguish between degrees of automation in the use of the tools is to miss the point of the aesthetic question. Design is where aesthetics come into play.
Click to expand...
^^^ Great synopsis.

Wolfgang was mentioned. He's in the uber-league of masters whose work is highly sought-after and collectible.

Others in this league: Michael Walker, Ron or Ray Appleton, Emanuel Esposito. All of THESE makers utilize incredibly skilled usage of high-tech machinery, along with their own curves and style.

Me? I'm all for it. Show me what you accomplished. Madd skillz to program those machines, BTW. Whether hand crafted or keyboard input, if it's a singular maker's creation, I'm a supporter.

I wish I knew exactly, but I'm told Wolfe is a master at making his own tools and files. He has used his advanced toolmaking skills to do what he could not do otherwise.

Not much different?

Good discussion.

Coop
 
Patrice, I am guessing the video I posted up about the EDM process is the one you are referring to. Which would mean you are calling my Guard on the CAS Knife "Soulless" ;) EDIT: Or at least the square hole in the guard "Soulless"

I will leave my comments for another time.
 
Daniel I am sorry, I guess what I meant when I used EDM as an example was more the fully automated processes. For example if you worked on an knife assembly line and that you basically feed material to a machine and press buttons, you are not a knifemaker. The resulting piece will not impress me as much as if you made it by hand even assisted with power tools. And that will make the piece more beautiful in my eyes. Of course if I can't tell the difference between both and nobody tells me they will generate the same response. Not saying I necessarily can spot something hand made.

paneraica said:
In your avatar. Your using a machine to grind the blade of a knife. The steel you bought was rolled through machines to a set thickness, holes drilled with a drill press etc.
Click to expand...

See, that's why I should have known better to start a discussion I knew was gonna be complicated when I obviously have trouble conveying what I mean. You completely missed my point.
I make handmade knives and people who use more machines than me don't? Is that what you got from my posts? Really? If so then I have to accept that I ain't no writer and stop starting threads that only confuse folks.:o

To conclude and hopefully clarify things (not hopeful though), here are some concrete examples of what I mean.

A laser engraving versus the same engraving done by hand (even using a pneumatic engraver).
Factory made perfect plunge lines versus perfect hand made plunges (even using various jigs).

In both case, I may see the beauty in the first option but the second one will have something more that will change my perception so that it is even more beautiful to me.

PS: Sorry if I repeat my self but I re-wrote this about 10 times trying to make things as clear as I could. :o
 
Patrice Lemée;12033944 said:
I should have been clearer about the video. It was an intricate cutout of a cross...
Click to expand...

Ryan, this is what I was referring to. But the square hole is indeed completely soulless.... as is any other square hole, no matter how they were made. ;)
But the guard itself sure makes up for it. :thumbup:
 
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Patrice,
Definitely a subject that can be misunderstood. BUT, I think everyone has their own idea of "handmade". IMHO, water jet cut blanks are not hand made. square, rectangle, triangle cut outs are not hand made. I think it goes even deeper, I feel more satisfied with a blade that I have draw filed than one done with the belt sander. Maybe it is because I work all day on machines forging steel parts that must be identical(some tolerances are +/- 0.06mm). I have made and am making more jigs so my knives are more uniform. There are areas in the knife making process where we need uniformity and repeatability, especially heat treat. IMHO when you start making knives in batches where you cannot really see any difference between blade 1 and blade 10(or 25 or ....) the blades are no longer handmade, they are mass produced just at a much smaller scale than Shun or Case or ....
Just some thoughts from an old sailor,
Scott
 
Long ago there was a lonnnnng post which kickstarted this debate again. (Automated processes vs hand processes.) It was the cause of much disturbance in the Knifemaker's Guild about 20 years ago?

RJ Martin, after repeated trials of explanation, posted a mock folding knife he had made parts of on his CNC. He didn't do more than assemble the parts after they were 'spit out' of the machine. LOL!

It was a dangerous mess of sharp edges, locks not working, stripped screws, and misfits. Just miserable.

The point was abundantly clear: There's plenty of of handmade in every knife.

Once I get past the mythical 'soul' of a knife, I'm not so jaundiced.

It's the real relationship with the maker, and the pleasure of the mechanics and style which bring me the most 'handmade' pleasure.

I don't care how they got that.

Thanks Patrice, for a provocative topic.

Jim
 
A handmade piece is a creation that can take any form the craftsman can visualize and achieve. A piece made on an automated machine can never really be more than a duplicate of an existing design. I think of a handmade piece from a talented craftsman as being a creation that is refined by the maker's eye during the building process, not simply built to conform to existing data and specifications. Arbitration during the build process is really key here. If every dimension and contour, every relationship between this element and that, is known before beginning a piece, then it is not a creation, it is a duplicate.
 
I have to agree Patrice I have a Soulless Hole. Which is much better than a Hole in my soul :p

As David mentioned earlier, it is a slippery slope. Where do you draw the tool line, it sounds like you are ok with Files and Power drills. You could be using the old style hand drill... Right?
hand-drill-1_zpsce6e26da.jpg
 
it has an affect on my out look of the knife before it gets to my hands. but as soon as i have it in my hands the only thing that matters is how good it looks and how well it was made.
 
Patrice Lemée;12037033 said:
Daniel I am sorry, I guess what I meant when I used EDM as an example was more the fully automated processes. For example if you worked on an knife assembly line and that you basically feed material to a machine and press buttons, you are not a knifemaker.
Click to expand...

True, you wouldn't be a knifemaker, you would be a person who makes knives! :p :D


(you know I'm just being silly)



Big Box Store Knife vs Masamune Katana... no question. But after that it gets tougher.

I'm not too sure about this whole thing... It seems with knifemaking often things are ten times more complicated that I think they will be. I'd have to try both. So whatever is clever! :)
 
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