How much does an off-center edge annoy you?

[Blackhearted]

just ordered a second becker brute for a gift for someone (getting some good canadian prices on these so i am doing birthday and xmas shopping early), and the damned thing has an off-center edge, and to aggravate it even more (but probably only because of the off center edge, it is sharpened more on one side.

its over by a 32nd of an inch (on a .25" blade, its plainly noticeable). would this bother you?
at a store, im the type of person who will go through a dozen boxes of these things till i can find one with a perfectly centred edge (im one of those people that looks way at the back of the shelf to get milk that has a day later expiry date). but one of the drawbacks of online/phone ordering is you cant do that.
im not going to send it back because id have to pay for postage, wait another 2 weeks, and the thing is a utility hard use knife anyways, and the recipient probably wont even notice. but i just wonder how many people would be annoyed with this?

the becker line is very affordable, and one of the best bangs for the buck right now. however, the brute is still an $87 knife, and i think at that price range the least you could expect was a centred edge. in fact i think that the least you should expect from any knife over $35 is a centred edge. i recommend that anyone buying these actually handle them first or, if ordering from someplace like new graham, im sure you can ask them to check the edge before sending it out. this is also something to consider when you are saving $5-10 on a knife from ordering online - would it have been worth another $5-10 to hand-pick it?

cheers,
-gabriel

 

[sak_collector]

Stuff like that used to bother me. I would buy a hundred dollar knife and then sit for hours looking for faults. I would hold it as different angles to see if the edge was perfect. I would wiggle it in all directions slow, fast, soft, hard and everything else and if I even thought I felt blade play I was mighty upset.

It finally occured to me that most people who buy knives use them and never have problems. I dont think minimal blade play or an uneven edge is a big deal, its more of a problem to obsess about it though. Give the knifes as a gift, tell the person to enjoy it and be done with it...you will sleep better

 

[Blackhearted]

funny that you should mention blade play - thats also something that drives me absolutely nuts

i guess you are right though - i shouldnt worry about it. odds are the new owner wont even notice it. i would, however - one of the first things i check for on a knife is how the blade is centred, its the first thing i noticed when i opened the box and inspected it. blemishes on knives im going to use have never bothered me, however an off-centre blade is a permanent, unfixable fault in the knife.

btw - im really wondering how this happened - i was under the impression that mass-produced knives like this were factory produced. i guess theyre not? maybe little elves make them, and the one that made mine had a hangover.

cheers,
-gabriel

 

[pogo]

Yep...not a real big deal here. The Factory should fire whomever sharpens them though! The sharpener is probebly on Workmans Comp & they gave an easy job to him while he recovers! This is not the ideal situation but, it happens. The Factory management could care less as the Dollar is the bottom line. Let some injured BooB do it so we wont have to give him bucks for sitting at Home! I fired off a letter to Queen over a month ago on their crappily sharpened knives & no reply! I told them to fire the Bum! JMO :thumbdn:

 

[Nimick]

I don't own one, but aren't the edges on a KISS and PECK off center so that they are not exposed when closed?

However, I wont carry a knife that I spent more than $30 because of the off-center edge (or other fault) thing.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If the angle is off then it is a concern, 15 degrees on one side and 25 on the other is annoying to sharpen. Centering doesn't bother me unless extreme and you notice it when cutting.

-Cliff

 

[gordonk]

I've been pretty lucky with the ones I've ordered on line. Blades have been centered and no blade play. Off-center blades do annoy me, especially with buying in Canada at our higher prices. If I really, really want the demo and blades slightly off center, and I can't get one NIB, and the pivot's adjustable, maybe...... If I'm getting one NIB, and I've spent good money for it (for me, it's over about $100 CDN), I would expect it to be centered, no blade play, tight lockup. If it's a framelock or liner lock, I would expect the liner to be less than 1/3 of the way over. I've only been disappointed a couple of times this way. Both of them were Bucks - my Alpha Folding Hunter, it came in a clamshell and the liner was over halfway and will occasionally mover over a bit more, and my Adrenalin - also with the liner at the halfway mark. Now in saying that, they haven't moved either. Still annoying, but tolerable. Blades were centered and locked up tight. When I got my Spydie Paramilitary, I got it NIB (Paid about $200 CDN), and it was what I would have expected - sharp as the dickens, smooth opening/closing, blade centered, grinds even, compression lock worked fine, just a bit sticky, but not annoying (I knew it would smooth out, which it has). I also bought a BM 556 Mini-Grip at the same time - same thing. For the most part, my line of thinking is "If you can get a Ka-Bar/Dozer folding hunter like that for $40 (CDN), there is no reason to expect less for a knife that costs more." You should be paying for better materials and steels. Basic fit and finish "should" be a given.


I've been buying locally the last little and biting the bullet on the higher prices, but I've also been able to inspect before I buy I deal online with Pauline at Knifezone a fair amount, and she's great about checking stuff out before shipping - I've ordered more than a few from her and each one that I've got from her has been perfect. More important - I won't be getting stuff seized

rant/off - gord

 

[Jeff Clark]

An off-center edge is an extreme put off for me. I have a belt sander and I can fix some problems, but it makes me unhappy. It is often very conspicuous near the point. The whole end of the knife looks wierd.

 

[pogo]

I guess i will check this site out as the last Four knives I have bought from the KNIFECENTER were real dogs...dull that is...real dull! They emailed me back in about seven days...should have just sent me a letter which would have been faster! They said they dont check em, just ship em out! Yeah, thanks for nothing KNIFECENTER! I will be sure & place a large order with you in the next 400,000 years! :barf: :barf:

I've been pretty lucky with the ones I've ordered on line. Blades have been centered and no blade play. Off-center blades do annoy me, especially with buying in Canada at our higher prices. If I really, really want the demo and blades slightly off center, and I can't get one NIB, and the pivot's adjustable, maybe...... If I'm getting one NIB, and I've spent good money for it (for me, it's over about $100 CDN), I would expect it to be centered, no blade play, tight lockup. If it's a framelock or liner lock, I would expect the liner to be less than 1/3 of the way over. I've only been disappointed a couple of times this way. Both of them were Bucks - my Alpha Folding Hunter, it came in a clamshell and the liner was over halfway and will occasionally mover over a bit more, and my Adrenalin - also with the liner at the halfway mark. Now in saying that, they haven't moved either. Still annoying, but tolerable. Blades were centered and locked up tight. When I got my Spydie Paramilitary, I got it NIB (Paid about $200 CDN), and it was what I would have expected - sharp as the dickens, smooth opening/closing, blade centered, grinds even, compression lock worked fine, just a bit sticky, but not annoying (I knew it would smooth out, which it has). I also bought a BM 556 Mini-Grip at the same time - same thing. For the most part, my line of thinking is "If you can get a Ka-Bar/Dozer folding hunter like that for $40 (CDN), there is no reason to expect less for a knife that costs more." You should be paying for better materials and steels. Basic fit and finish "should" be a given.


I've been buying locally the last little and biting the bullet on the higher prices, but I've also been able to inspect before I buy I deal online with Pauline at Knifezone a fair amount, and she's great about checking stuff out before shipping - I've ordered more than a few from her and each one that I've got from her has been perfect. More important - I won't be getting stuff seized

rant/off - gord

 

[gordonk]

I've had pretty good service from knifecentre, but I was definitely disappointed that they would not tighten the pivots. I got a BM Mini-grip and a Buck Northshore seized that came from knifecenter. They were going to try to get them back, but we'll see......... Several of the other ones will not ship USPS, and of course, if they come UPS, it would actually end up cheaper buying in Canada anyway I liked knifecenter for that reason - I used their Express Mail option, which used to be Fed Ex. It was a $25.00 charge (U.S.), but customs was about $9.00. If you ordered a couple or more, the pricing was still more favorable than the Canadian pricing.

Pauline at knifezone is good in the fact that if she doesn't have it in the Regina warehouse, she can give you a pretty exact ETA of when you will see it. She's not the cheapest, by any stretch, but she can get stuff. She/they recently were able to acquire Benchmades and I ordered a BM 550 from her - it took about 6 weeks, but then she told me it would take that long. I ordered the same time as my Endura and she didn't charge me shipping on the BM!!! If I can't get something locally or I don't have time to track something down locall, I will usually try her next. Usually, I'm not in that big of a hurry anyway. After that, I start hunting harder I just bought some spydies from her - she mentioned that they would be in Regina on Aug 8th and probably shipped the same day to me. I do know they get pretty busy - she sometimes takes a couple of day to email back, but if you phone on their toll free number, she will likely answer the phone. She's good enough to look up stuff while you are waiting. Can't knock that in the least from my side.

- gord

 

[tim8557]

It's a coincidence that you ask. I was just reshrpening my Mini Grip in D2 steel on my Edge Pro and I seemed to notice that one side seemed to ride higher on the platform, especially towards the tip, when sharpening. I muddled through thinking that it was probably the way I was holding it in my right hand versus left hand.

Afterwards, I looked down on the blade through the spine, and lo and behold, it is not symetrical with the left side being just a hair thicker than the right side towards the tip.

It still sharpened up like a banshee though.

 

[pogo]

Thats a real shame that it was conviscated. This happened to me quite a while back. It will probebly go into some Customs Bozo,s pocket! I have never heard of mine yet... It was like it disappeared! The Bozo that runs Knifecenter should have known that but, did not care. This is how they operate! Get the money & run! JMO

I've had pretty good service from knifecentre, but I was definitely disappointed that they would not tighten the pivots. I got a BM Mini-grip and a Buck Northshore seized that came from knifecenter. They were going to try to get them back, but we'll see......... Several of the other ones will not ship USPS, and of course, if they come UPS, it would actually end up cheaper buying in Canada anyway I liked knifecenter for that reason - I used their Express Mail option, which used to be Fed Ex. It was a $25.00 charge (U.S.), but customs was about $9.00. If you ordered a couple or more, the pricing was still more favorable than the Canadian pricing.

Pauline at knifezone is good in the fact that if she doesn't have it in the Regina warehouse, she can give you a pretty exact ETA of when you will see it. She's not the cheapest, by any stretch, but she can get stuff. She/they recently were able to acquire Benchmades and I ordered a BM 550 from her - it took about 6 weeks, but then she told me it would take that long. I ordered the same time as my Endura and she didn't charge me shipping on the BM!!! If I can't get something locally or I don't have time to track something down locall, I will usually try her next. Usually, I'm not in that big of a hurry anyway. After that, I start hunting harder I just bought some spydies from her - she mentioned that they would be in Regina on Aug 8th and probably shipped the same day to me. I do know they get pretty busy - she sometimes takes a couple of day to email back, but if you phone on their toll free number, she will likely answer the phone. She's good enough to look up stuff while you are waiting. Can't knock that in the least from my side.

- gord

 

[Blackhearted]

If the angle is off then it is a concern, 15 degrees on one side and 25 on the other is annoying to sharpen. Centering doesn't bother me unless extreme and you notice it when cutting.

-Cliff

since the edge isnt centred, its pretty safe to assume that the entire primary bevel of the knife is off. its flat ground, and the line at the spine is identical on either side - so if the knife is off by 1/8th of the blade width (sounds like a little but its actually quite a bit), then the angle has to be off.
the sharpening angle means little, since on any controlled-angle sharpener its going to be fixed the first time you sharpen the knife, at worst it just adds a bit of sharpening time.

cliff - what did you do with yours? i saw some pics where it looked like you resharpened your beckers on a belt sander and faded the edge into the primary bevel. did you remove that much steel, or did the edge end up slightly convex?

cheers,
-gabriel

 

[Stormdrane]

Nothing is perfect. If you look hard enough for faults, you will find them. Since it's a production blade, it should work fine despite any slight variance in the edge. You could always resharpen it to whatever angle you want.

 

[Danbo]

I'm spoiled by some of my custom knives. I expect perfection(or, near that) from all my knives. It's one reason I usually don't buy knives sight unseen. I prefer to hand pick them off dealer's or custom maker's tables. It's also why I rarely finish a knife I'm making myself, because I know how picky I am and how picky the friends I'll end up showing the knife to are.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...the sharpening angle means little, since on any controlled-angle sharpener its going to be fixed the first time you sharpen the knife, at worst it just adds a bit of sharpening time.

It isn't really a big deal to me personally, I will just hog it off on a belt sander, 1-2 minutes max. However for most people it will make the first sharpening insane. One side will hit a burr immediately and the other refuses to have any effect. It would be very frustrating for a lot of people, and initial profiling takes a long time with most jig systems, especially v-rods.

i saw some pics where it looked like you resharpened your beckers on a belt sander and faded the edge into the primary bevel. did you remove that much steel

Yes when I reprofile I grind the hell out of blades. On folders I lay them right on the belt so even the spine gets hit, I don't go much lighter on larger blades, none of my EDC knives have edges heavier than 15 degrees per side and they are only the heavy duty big coppers, even most of them are 10-12, everything is under 10, and alot are ~5.

-Cliff

 

[Blackhearted]

Nothing is perfect. If you look hard enough for faults, you will find them. Since it's a production blade, it should work fine despite any slight variance in the edge. You could always resharpen it to whatever angle you want.

when the entire blade (primary bevel) is over by that much, you cannot 'fix' it without trashing the knife. i could start removing material from one side but by the time i centred it the width of the blade would be down by 1/4" at least. not to mention a gift is supposed to be 'new', heh.

i think ive been spoiled by high quality knives too. although even if i were buying merely a $25 folder, i would still keep looking through them till i found one with a centred edge... and if i couldnt find one, id pass on the knives. i dont think its because i think a knife will necessarily fail to perform if the edge is out of whack, but that if im spending my money on this thing i might as well get one thats made correctly

cheers,
-gabriel

 

[tim8557]

Yes when I reprofile I grind the hell out of blades. On folders I lay them right on the belt so even the spine gets hit, I don't go much lighter on larger blades, none of my EDC knives have edges heavier than 15 degrees per side and they are only the heavy duty big coppers, even most of them are 10-12, everything is under 10, and alot are ~5.

-Cliff

Are you saying that your primary bevels are down to 5 degrees? I would imagine that this is extremely sharp, but very fragile.

 

[Blackhearted]

Yes when I reprofile I grind the hell out of blades. On folders I lay them right on the belt so even the spine gets hit, I don't go much lighter on larger blades, none of my EDC knives have edges heavier than 15 degrees per side and they are only the heavy duty big coppers, even most of them are 10-12, everything is under 10, and alot are ~5.

-Cliff

cliff, youve used and abused the hell out of a lot of knives. so if you say a 10-15 degree angle is fine on a brute ill give it a shot, i trust your experience. ive personally been going down to 18-22 degrees on heavy duty knives of this sort, but never dreamed of pushing it much lower on something thats going to see hard all-round use.

but then why on earth does everyone tell you to sharpen knives like this at huge angles - often as much as 30-35 degrees? are they just erring on the 'safe' side? or when higher edge angles were the norm on hunting style knives were they just not using the same high-end steels we are today?

its easy to see the advantages of more acute angles on blades of this sort, but what sortof disadvantages am i going to face? how rough should i leave the final edge? should i leave it with a rough stone for micro-serrations or polish the edge out?

cheers,
-gabriel

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Are you saying that your primary bevels are down to 5 degrees? I would imagine that this is extremely sharp, but very fragile.

Yes, the primary edge angle can be ~5 degrees, some are a little lower, some are higher, these are usually on full hard still blades. They don't get used for batoning or twisting in cuts however the only thing that I won't cut with them are metals.

...if you say a 10-15 degree angle is fine on a brute

I have taken a lot of blades down to the failure point, from machetes to high end customs. Fifteen degrees is really heavy for a wood cutting blade, even on a machete I would run the primary grind down to ten degrees and leave just the very edge (under 0.020") at ~15 for knots.

but then why on earth does everyone tell you to sharpen knives like this at huge angles - often as much as 30-35 degrees?

A lot of this comes from people never using different profiles. For example in "The Axe Book" and "The Complete Book on Sharpening" you will see very acute edges recommended. Traditional wood working blades like parangs, goloks, and felling axes have very thin and acute edges.

...but what sortof disadvantages am i going to face? how rough should i leave the final edge? should i leave it with a rough stone for micro-serrations or polish the edge out?

If you are chopping then it gets the highest polish you can apply. It will cut better and last longer.

The only downside to reducing edge thickness is that the edge loses durablity. However unless you pass the limit which is encountered in use then it makes no difference and the knife cuts better and safer. A lot of it depends on what you want to do.

Are you just chopping thick wood, or are you also going to be doing some limbing, and even limbing hard woods? Do you want to baton woods as well including trying to chisel cut through very hard knots?

When changing the profile make sure that you reduce the edge angle and not just apply a relief grind because you want to make the edge the weak point. It is much better to see a slight deformation in the edge, rather than ripple the relief grind.

-Cliff