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Hydraulic pressure is used to 'easy' forge weld. Does anyone know what the minimum pressure will get the job done?
BoyntonStu
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How much hydraulic pressure equals hammer blows?
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fitzo
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You can weld a billet by squeezing it in a vise. If you get nice flat, clean steel, get it fluxed properly and at the right temp, the metal welds itself. All you are really doing is making the pieces meet. As it was explained to me, "if you get all the conditions right, it can't help but weld". Actually, when you hammer weld, you only want to tap the metal shut, not beat the heck out of it. Save that for drawing heats.
The use of a press is not necessary to weld. What it does is save time and effort in drawing, and forming to particular shapes, as in squaring, etc.
To answer your question, very little pressure is needed, maybe a ton or so at most?? How much pressure is in a hammer blow?
The use of a press is not necessary to weld. What it does is save time and effort in drawing, and forming to particular shapes, as in squaring, etc.
To answer your question, very little pressure is needed, maybe a ton or so at most?? How much pressure is in a hammer blow?
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If you swing a hammer like people from Waukegan, it takes alot of blows. If you swing like a Southsider, probably one or two...
Seriously, Boyston you're overthinking your forge welding. I know I've seen at least 2 posts by you on various forums discussing projects for making a hydraulic press involving hammer drills and all manner of hand operated vises or presses. There's nothing wrong with being creative, pursuing knowledge and asking questions - but don't overexert your mind seeking an easy altervnative to the point that you're already burned out before beginning the project.
Just back off for a bit, try some simple cable damascus with a simple flux and learn how the nature of steel works. Learn that and you'll figure out how nature can work for you.
Tim
Seriously, Boyston you're overthinking your forge welding. I know I've seen at least 2 posts by you on various forums discussing projects for making a hydraulic press involving hammer drills and all manner of hand operated vises or presses. There's nothing wrong with being creative, pursuing knowledge and asking questions - but don't overexert your mind seeking an easy altervnative to the point that you're already burned out before beginning the project.
Just back off for a bit, try some simple cable damascus with a simple flux and learn how the nature of steel works. Learn that and you'll figure out how nature can work for you.
Tim
fitzo
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Originally posted by TimWieneke
If you swing a hammer like people from Waukegan, it takes alot of blows. If you swing like a Southsider, probably one or two...
Tim
Reminds me of that joke about the old bull and the young bull on top of the hill looking down at a herd of cows....
We used to swing the hammers hard... this was from when you were 11:
Jeesh, there was color in my beard, then! Now I'm too old and beat up for the heavy-handed approach, plus, I don't miss very often anymore. I simply can't smash the heck outta stuff like when I was 36 or so. When I watched Max Burnett make beautiful inclusion-free chainsaw damascus with the lightest hammer blows I'd ever seen, it was a revelation.....
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I see comments such as, "I started with a 2 lb hammer and I worked my arms up to where I could swing a 14 pounder". I am 65 and would rather use my head before I needed to use brute strength. The last few posts were very en-LIGHTENING. Meaning that it does not seem to take a great deal of strength to weld.
So I Ask again, would a cheap 1 ton arbor press be able to quickly and easily weld a cable using its 20:1 mechanical advantage to my benefit?
BoyntonStu
So I Ask again, would a cheap 1 ton arbor press be able to quickly and easily weld a cable using its 20:1 mechanical advantage to my benefit?
BoyntonStu
fitzo
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Sorry, I tried to answer you in my first response but didn't understand, obviously. I know for a fact you can weld squeezing a stacked billet in a vise. You didn't say anything about an arbor press, nor did you mention cable, so I missed what the real topic was...
As for cable, it will probably leave you with a host of inclusions trying to weld with that little arbor press. Welding cable is not about the pressure, it's about getting the crap out and getting it closed up. Cable is probably one of the most difficult of welds to accomplish. With all due respect, I have to disagree with Tim about it being a starting point for a new 'smith. You are trying to cause many cylindrical surfaces to collapse against one another, deform to create mating surfaces, and weld, all at one time. You have hundreds of "layers" at once, in a helical configuration. Pressing them flat will distort the configuration, and cause some strands to separate. The cool thing about cable is you don't have to draw it and refold numerous times to get alot of "layer" effect. If you DO get it welded, though, you have nothing left to do but cut the ends off as waste and forge to shape, so in that respect Tim is quite right.
If you want to try that little handpress, then I suggest you make a cylindrical die, slightly smaller than the cable, to force it closed, a small section at a time,or perhaps a squaring die. Maybe something like a piece of channel iron on the base close to the initial diameter of the cable to hold the billet from the sides as the pressure comes from the vertical, somewhat squaring the billet early. My personal opinion, however, is that there won't be enough force with that little puppy. Most all I have spoken with have always said they get their best results welding this in the round, resting the cable on the shelf of the anvil so there are three surfaces in contact with the cable all at once, and constantly turning the piece as you hammer, working about one hammer-width per heat, overlapping the "widths". If you haven't done this before, I can tell you that the steel changes feel so dramatically that you can actually come to feel when it's welded, but this still doesn't insure an inclusion-free interior.
Welding cable really takes very little effort, smashing-wise. Truly, there is no need for beating the p*ss out of it. However, it does take a long time (hours) working it more easily, something my damaged, arthritic shoulders no longer like, either. The brute-force approach is not available to me anymore, except with my press.
Presses will get the cable welding done, but in all honesty, it seems that one gets better results with hammers, whether hand- or power-. I've heard it stated that the resonance caused by hammering works the wires in closer to one another more readily. Bowie calls it the 'harmonics" induced by hammering. I now remember you were asking about an electric-hammer in another thread. If you were to make specific dies for closing up the cable in the round, you may actually have more success with that thang than with a 1-ton handpress.
To make one other point, a press creates a high pressure INSIDE a billet, while a hammer has it's highest pressure on the outside. They are really complementary mechanisms of force. You would think that the billet-interior pressure with a press would cause better interior welding, but this is not necessarily the case. I do a lot of hand hammering on cable, then squish it with a 23 ton press at the very end. The billets I've done exclusively with the squaring dies in the press have not been as inclusion-free as when hand-hammering, but others may have more developed technique.
Hope this helps.
As for cable, it will probably leave you with a host of inclusions trying to weld with that little arbor press. Welding cable is not about the pressure, it's about getting the crap out and getting it closed up. Cable is probably one of the most difficult of welds to accomplish. With all due respect, I have to disagree with Tim about it being a starting point for a new 'smith. You are trying to cause many cylindrical surfaces to collapse against one another, deform to create mating surfaces, and weld, all at one time. You have hundreds of "layers" at once, in a helical configuration. Pressing them flat will distort the configuration, and cause some strands to separate. The cool thing about cable is you don't have to draw it and refold numerous times to get alot of "layer" effect. If you DO get it welded, though, you have nothing left to do but cut the ends off as waste and forge to shape, so in that respect Tim is quite right.
If you want to try that little handpress, then I suggest you make a cylindrical die, slightly smaller than the cable, to force it closed, a small section at a time,or perhaps a squaring die. Maybe something like a piece of channel iron on the base close to the initial diameter of the cable to hold the billet from the sides as the pressure comes from the vertical, somewhat squaring the billet early. My personal opinion, however, is that there won't be enough force with that little puppy. Most all I have spoken with have always said they get their best results welding this in the round, resting the cable on the shelf of the anvil so there are three surfaces in contact with the cable all at once, and constantly turning the piece as you hammer, working about one hammer-width per heat, overlapping the "widths". If you haven't done this before, I can tell you that the steel changes feel so dramatically that you can actually come to feel when it's welded, but this still doesn't insure an inclusion-free interior.
Welding cable really takes very little effort, smashing-wise. Truly, there is no need for beating the p*ss out of it. However, it does take a long time (hours) working it more easily, something my damaged, arthritic shoulders no longer like, either. The brute-force approach is not available to me anymore, except with my press.
Presses will get the cable welding done, but in all honesty, it seems that one gets better results with hammers, whether hand- or power-. I've heard it stated that the resonance caused by hammering works the wires in closer to one another more readily. Bowie calls it the 'harmonics" induced by hammering. I now remember you were asking about an electric-hammer in another thread. If you were to make specific dies for closing up the cable in the round, you may actually have more success with that thang than with a 1-ton handpress.
To make one other point, a press creates a high pressure INSIDE a billet, while a hammer has it's highest pressure on the outside. They are really complementary mechanisms of force. You would think that the billet-interior pressure with a press would cause better interior welding, but this is not necessarily the case. I do a lot of hand hammering on cable, then squish it with a 23 ton press at the very end. The billets I've done exclusively with the squaring dies in the press have not been as inclusion-free as when hand-hammering, but others may have more developed technique.
Hope this helps.
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You are really helping me. Thanks.
My goal is to make cable knives. The first step is to weld the strands of the blade into a solid billet.
After your last post, I believe that hammering the cable flat is not where to start. A 2 piece die for swaging the cable into its perfectly round cylindrical size (without voids) seems to be the way to go. All the squish to the center, using a press and the die. Perhaps an inch at a time. After the billet is formed, a flatter to make the blade.
How does this method sound.
BoyntonStu
My goal is to make cable knives. The first step is to weld the strands of the blade into a solid billet.
After your last post, I believe that hammering the cable flat is not where to start. A 2 piece die for swaging the cable into its perfectly round cylindrical size (without voids) seems to be the way to go. All the squish to the center, using a press and the die. Perhaps an inch at a time. After the billet is formed, a flatter to make the blade.
How does this method sound.
BoyntonStu
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I have made a lot of cable damascus blades and had the best welds are when I twist the cable to weld it. I take the cable apart and clean it up, put it back together and weld the ends with a arc welder, heat and flux real good, twist while at welding heat. I do this several times. At this point I have not even picked up a hammer, when the billet won't twist any tighter then I use a hammer to finish the weld and make a square bar then the work starts as that stuff just don't want to move. Hope this helps just my way of doing it. Gib
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Gib,
Do you do that thing where you forge a square onto each end of the cable before turning? Something to grip w/ a wrench? If not, what do you do? If so, is it ok to overheat the ends so long as you intend to cut them off? Sorry to barage you with questions
. Thanks.
Tim
Do you do that thing where you forge a square onto each end of the cable before turning? Something to grip w/ a wrench? If not, what do you do? If so, is it ok to overheat the ends so long as you intend to cut them off? Sorry to barage you with questions
. Thanks.Tim
fitzo
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You're welcome, Stu. We all try to help one another, here. We don't always have the same tachniques, which is great because we can synthesize improvements learning what others do. Gib presents another methodology that surely works effectively. This is one point that's apparent: there are different techniques, or sequences, if you would, to get to the final endpoint of a piece of cable welded inclusion free. That is why it is difficult to present a "surefire" single method.
I take the long hunk of virgin cable, wire the free end and about 7-8" back, then cut it with a chopsaw. Then I weld on a handle, nowadays 1/4x1" flatstock. I then heat to a red, allowing the goo in there to burn out, then flux, heat til it bubbles, scrub the exterior with a wire brush, reflux, reheat. I then hammer-weld about 1" of each end squarish in two heats to have tight ends that don't fray. After that, I do two welding heats, with flux, and twist the cable as tight-shut as possible. Gib is totally correct, there is a lot of welding going on there. In my case, the hammered ends make it a bit easier for me to secure one end in the vise and the other in the wrench, which is a 14" pipewrench with a rebar handle welded onto the head end so there are 2 handles. That is the end of the twisting for me, usually. I then proceed to do the hammering in the round, with the anvil shelf, as described above, and inch or so per heat. When the billet is fully welded, I move to my press, and squish it to square with a set of squaring dies. How much additional interior compression goes on there, and how many final voids are closed I don't know. After it is squared, I then flatten on the press. At that point I cut off an inch or so from each end, those initial hammer-welds I made for twisting. I now have a billet ready to forge a blade.
I have intended to make a set of round swages for the press, to see how it welds the cable, as you have suggested, Stu, and I think that will work. My concern is whether that little arbor press will produce enough squeeze to close it up completely. I have my doubts, I must admit, but don't want to discourage experimentation. There is only going to be one way to find out, of course, and that's to try it. That will cost you considerable work to ascertain functionality, and might well fail. It will be up to you to determine if you want to expend the effort and expense. I have to say that I have not heard of that being done before. I do know, however, that one can weld the cable by hand without any brute force hammering. If you haven't tried that yet, I recommend you give it a whirl before investing in that arbor press. Even with the arbor press to squish it some, I would still personally want a couple sessions with the hammer before i started to flatten and draw. One important thing to remember is that in a press, force is spread out over the surface areas of the dies, so that the bigger the die, the lower the PSI. We call it a "20 ton" press, or whatever, but that is really not the loading calculated for the surface area of the whole die. That means you will be constrained to very small dies in that arbor press or the force will be small.
With what Gib and I have written, I think it will be a pretty good starting point. Do not expect immediate inclusion-free results. I remember when cable first started appearing, there were often a couple inclusions visible, acceptable at that time for this material. 20 years later, that is no longer the case. It will take a few tries, and even down the road you will still be "surprised" when you find small areas that didn't close. One thing I would strongly recommend: start out with virgin cable. You do not want to find out there was a bunch of sand and grit stuck inside the piece from using cable end retrieved from a construction site. Gib obviously has knowledge of the possibilites of crap inside, or he wouldn't take it apart. I just hate messing with that Rubic's Cube of putting it back together. I was given some marine-tow cable once that had enough crap mixed with heavy grease inside to start a kid's sandbox....unnacceptable!
I think one of the most important points is that the billet, whether squared or round, is not flattened too early in the process. Twisting is also critical, and perhaps I didn't stress that enough, earlier. I sometimes take these things for granted and may assume it is understood. Apologies if I misconstrued things. Hope we have helped.
I take the long hunk of virgin cable, wire the free end and about 7-8" back, then cut it with a chopsaw. Then I weld on a handle, nowadays 1/4x1" flatstock. I then heat to a red, allowing the goo in there to burn out, then flux, heat til it bubbles, scrub the exterior with a wire brush, reflux, reheat. I then hammer-weld about 1" of each end squarish in two heats to have tight ends that don't fray. After that, I do two welding heats, with flux, and twist the cable as tight-shut as possible. Gib is totally correct, there is a lot of welding going on there. In my case, the hammered ends make it a bit easier for me to secure one end in the vise and the other in the wrench, which is a 14" pipewrench with a rebar handle welded onto the head end so there are 2 handles. That is the end of the twisting for me, usually. I then proceed to do the hammering in the round, with the anvil shelf, as described above, and inch or so per heat. When the billet is fully welded, I move to my press, and squish it to square with a set of squaring dies. How much additional interior compression goes on there, and how many final voids are closed I don't know. After it is squared, I then flatten on the press. At that point I cut off an inch or so from each end, those initial hammer-welds I made for twisting. I now have a billet ready to forge a blade.
I have intended to make a set of round swages for the press, to see how it welds the cable, as you have suggested, Stu, and I think that will work. My concern is whether that little arbor press will produce enough squeeze to close it up completely. I have my doubts, I must admit, but don't want to discourage experimentation. There is only going to be one way to find out, of course, and that's to try it. That will cost you considerable work to ascertain functionality, and might well fail. It will be up to you to determine if you want to expend the effort and expense. I have to say that I have not heard of that being done before. I do know, however, that one can weld the cable by hand without any brute force hammering. If you haven't tried that yet, I recommend you give it a whirl before investing in that arbor press. Even with the arbor press to squish it some, I would still personally want a couple sessions with the hammer before i started to flatten and draw. One important thing to remember is that in a press, force is spread out over the surface areas of the dies, so that the bigger the die, the lower the PSI. We call it a "20 ton" press, or whatever, but that is really not the loading calculated for the surface area of the whole die. That means you will be constrained to very small dies in that arbor press or the force will be small.
With what Gib and I have written, I think it will be a pretty good starting point. Do not expect immediate inclusion-free results. I remember when cable first started appearing, there were often a couple inclusions visible, acceptable at that time for this material. 20 years later, that is no longer the case. It will take a few tries, and even down the road you will still be "surprised" when you find small areas that didn't close. One thing I would strongly recommend: start out with virgin cable. You do not want to find out there was a bunch of sand and grit stuck inside the piece from using cable end retrieved from a construction site. Gib obviously has knowledge of the possibilites of crap inside, or he wouldn't take it apart. I just hate messing with that Rubic's Cube of putting it back together. I was given some marine-tow cable once that had enough crap mixed with heavy grease inside to start a kid's sandbox....unnacceptable!
I think one of the most important points is that the billet, whether squared or round, is not flattened too early in the process. Twisting is also critical, and perhaps I didn't stress that enough, earlier. I sometimes take these things for granted and may assume it is understood. Apologies if I misconstrued things. Hope we have helped.
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Thank you for the info Mike! This has been really helpfull. Can you recommend a virgin cable source around Chicago? I've been using scrap crap. Thanks.
Tim
Tim
fitzo
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Tim, if you are in the end of construction that deals with people using cranes, then you have a great source. They have to periodically replace the cable. This means there are tag ends from a fresh spool of cable available, and you can get a part number so you can find out what it is. If you can get them before they hang out in the dirt, this will be an almost freebie. There must be a bunch of cable ends from that quarry over there on the Indiana line at I-80. What little industry is left on the North Shore is certainly still clustered down around the Southside.
The other option is to look in the Yellow Pages for "wire rope" in the city and call them. They're bound to have large cutoff bins they may let you scrounge. I'd still wanna know what it is.
Lately, I have been buying cable from Sheffield Knifemakers' Supply. I like that 1-1/4" xx-improved plow they sell. Expensive, but no rust, dirt, etc, just grease that will burn out, and it makes a great blade. That way I know just what I'm getting. I hate "mystery" steel, but that is just my personal choice. IMO, an $18 hunk of cable will get one a lot of blades, worth far more than the intial cost of the raw material.
What little industry is left on the North Shore is certainly still clustered down around the Southside.The other option is to look in the Yellow Pages for "wire rope" in the city and call them. They're bound to have large cutoff bins they may let you scrounge. I'd still wanna know what it is.
Lately, I have been buying cable from Sheffield Knifemakers' Supply. I like that 1-1/4" xx-improved plow they sell. Expensive, but no rust, dirt, etc, just grease that will burn out, and it makes a great blade. That way I know just what I'm getting. I hate "mystery" steel, but that is just my personal choice. IMO, an $18 hunk of cable will get one a lot of blades, worth far more than the intial cost of the raw material.
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Tim, I use a over sizes pair of slip joint pliers about 14 or 15" long to twist the billet, with the ends welded I just put in the vise and twist, I would end up cutting off the end anyway.
One reason I take the cable apart is to remove the made in USA or whatever tag, thy are made of something that has caused trouble in the past. There are less inclusions that way. Gib
One reason I take the cable apart is to remove the made in USA or whatever tag, thy are made of something that has caused trouble in the past. There are less inclusions that way. Gib
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Thank you Mike,
I think I'll just go ahead and order some from Sheffield. May cost a few more bucks, but there's the whole "how much is my time worth..." thing.
Gib,
Thank you for the tips. I will keep an eye out for the tags. BTW - we've been missing the pic posts of your bowies on primal fires. We've been getting some from Chuck. He's been showing some fantastic collaboration work the two of you have been doing. That last one you did was exceptionally beautiful.
Tim
I think I'll just go ahead and order some from Sheffield. May cost a few more bucks, but there's the whole "how much is my time worth..." thing.
Gib,
Thank you for the tips. I will keep an eye out for the tags. BTW - we've been missing the pic posts of your bowies on primal fires. We've been getting some from Chuck. He's been showing some fantastic collaboration work the two of you have been doing. That last one you did was exceptionally beautiful.
Tim