How Much of a Demand?

Greg Covington

Greg Covington

Joined
Oct 28, 1999
Messages
1,563
Hey guys.....

How much of a demand would there be for quality damascus barstock in a variety of blends, patterns, and sizes....available in surface ground condition.

The reason I ask is that I have a family member who is genuinely interested in making the steel....rather than knives. He was inquiring about equipment as well as the potential demand from knifemakers.

I'd like to hear eveyone's thoughts.
 
Greg, whether this is pertinent or not, this thought occurred as I read your post:

Several well known names such as Devin Thomas, Darryl Meier, Jerry Rados, Mike Norris, and George Werth came to mind immediately. There are others but the names escape my old mind at the moment. I would think that it would be difficult though not impossible for another name to break into this market because those people who buy damascus use the "steel maker" as a selling point for their work. There are also any number of damascus-making knifemakers who don't specialize in barstock willing to take on a commission, also, for bladestock.

With Thunderforged occupying the "factory damascus" niche, there is a wide range of choices, and one would be hard pressed to find an immediate market for stuff made by a newcomer without trying for some pricing advantage or significant new appeal to capture attention.

Just rambling, but those thoughts came to mind.....
 
Fitzo,
You are right about it being hard to get into the nitch but it may be neede down the road. I'd say talk to him about the long road to being a stable supplier and all will work out. He would need to back his steel for cold cracks and the such. What better way to get in there than to market with afordable pricing and see what would happen. The knifemakers would ultamatly be the ones to give him business so give the knifemakers a reasin to choose him over competition. Its a risk as far a a business venture but if he wants to do it for the joy of making the damascus I'd say go for it. WHats to loose? I'd like to test out his steel if its at a good price and he backs the work so I know my blades will be as good as I can make them. I'd want to know that if a blade fails its my error, and not the damascus.

Now I am done rambling ;)
 
I'd say just go for it, Greg, but don't expect big returns even when the going is good. I for one am just speculating here - mind you - but I feel like the popularity of damascus is waning. Think of the fads in custom knives that have come and gone over the years and you may agree with me. It's time. Unless you can invent a new steel combo or a new twist or pattern, then you may not be truly successful as those who've been into it for a while.

That said, there is a thing such as attrition. Old knifemakers pass on and the young ones step in to fill their shoes. Same would go for the billet-makers I guess. Good luck if you do, and maybe I'll buy some from ya! :D
 
I kinda think that you would not have a problem selling it, per se, but it would take awhile to get the reputation out there....at least to do volume.

I think that there is a guy on ebay routinely selling bars for $50 and up...and it seems to do well
 
jhiggins said:
I'd say just go for it, Greg, but don't expect big returns even when the going is good. I for one am just speculating here - mind you - but I feel like the popularity of damascus is waning. Think of the fads in custom knives that have come and gone over the years and you may agree with me. It's time. Unless you can invent a new steel combo or a new twist or pattern, then you may not be truly successful as those who've been into it for a while.

That said, there is a thing such as attrition. Old knifemakers pass on and the young ones step in to fill their shoes. Same would go for the billet-makers I guess. Good luck if you do, and maybe I'll buy some from ya! :D
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Jeff...it is not me that wants to do it....it is a brother of mine...an engineer, scientist, and true genius! He is self employed in software engineering and works only a couple hrs a day.

I have no doubt that he would come at it in angles never seen before...it is just the way he is.

Lord knows I dont have time to do it.....I have been trying to get all my plain steel orders out of te way so I can "play"
 
Greg Covington said:
I have no doubt that he would come at it in angles never seen before...it is just the way he is.
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That was my point exactly, Greg. Same ol' same ol' competes for an existing market and simply dilutes it; new players have a difficult time entering mature markets without a "hook".

New, exciting ideas sell, and sell good if they're well marketed. A couple ideas come to mind... no one I know of markets san mai; canister patterns have potential. Someone who does their homework and has a creative bent could perhaps come up with a stunner.
 
fitzo said:
Same ol' same ol' competes for an existing market and simply dilutes it; new players have a difficult time entering mature markets without a "hook".
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That's my point, Mike. Look at Timascus. Look at Damasteel. Greg, if your brother is keen as you say he is, then definitely set him upon this. Every new idea is there waiting for someone to think it up. ;)
 
It all depends on his prices and his customer-relations skills. Hate to say it that way, but that is the biggest influence on who I buy damascus from.
 
Well, I'm going to have to disagree with Fitzo on this point. Although let me first qualify my statement, in that if he's looking to get rich doing it there probably isn't much chance, but if he's looking for something to do for supplemental income, that's a different story. The reason I say this is I have a blacksmith friend who makes yard art over the Summers, but during the Winter he needed to find something to do so he started making Damascus. He's unable to keep up with the demand within the local crowd and he's not even advertised elsewhere. In fact I've tried to get him to let me sell some of his stuff on my website, but he says he just can't handle the extra business. So, I'd say, tell your brother to go for it. In fact, if he's local to you, why not let him just use your stuff to get his feet wet and test the waters that way he can see if it's something that's going to be lucrative for him or not. However, this must just be something he is looking into as a new creative outlet, as there's a heck of a lot more money to be made in software development than there is in the knife industry!

:)

-Darren
 
Well, my father is in production damascus, and he gets way more orders than he could possibly ever fill. How hard it is to build up a reputation, etc. I have no idea.
 
Darren....it would be supplemental income only.

I think he got turned on when he saw me squish a billet in the press.
 
Just so that I don't become a sacrificial goat here, please allow me to clarify a few points:

First, I wrote the initial comment off the top of my head and labeled it as rambling, thinking out loud. I immediately thought of numerous people making damascus whose efforts are proudly displayed on many high-end collectors pieces wherein the makers use the specific "brand" as a selling point of their work. It would obviously be much harder to sell an $8k folder with "no name" damascus. (Please, don't get immediately insulted by the term "no name". Datsuns didn't sell so well initially, either!)

I stand by my comments about competition in business needing a "hook". That's taught in every business class there is. There has to be an appeal to sway people away from the old standards. It can be pricing, style, innovation, catchy marketing, etc. Even then, many fine ideas have gone under because of poor marketing or competitive pressures.

However, Darren's comments make some good sense. If this is a hobbyist venture, and sales are expected to be localized geographically or to the "middle" and hobbyist knifemaker market where profititable fulltime business isn't a significant concern, then it changes the prospectus, neh?

Knifemaking is a good example in itself. There are many makers busting their butt for little profit and having the time of their lives doing it. Thus, in the scenario of the "for fun" intent it takes on a different set of considerations. It would take quite awhile to pay off a power hammer, grinder, press, surface grinder, etc, though, so those things needs be factored in when considering the profitability. Those tools add up to a lot of damascus.

It all depends on the premises for entry into the endeavor.

I come to "purchased damascus" with an old set of biases. I can easily remember when a damascus blade was NEVER displayed for sale unless the maker made the steel himself. Times have changed immensely. My thoughts were for the well-known, fulltime maker market, but obviously it is much different now. The points made here by you others are quite valid, and my remarks should be taken only within the context of the constraints I mentioned.

BTW, Darren, please respond to my email with a request for your address so I can send this DVD, please. I lost it.
 
It's not as exciting as pattern welded/Damascus, but what about some exotic laminated ground stock? There have got to be some truly awesome combinations of edgeholding and strength possible with modern designer tool steels. If there's someone out there interested in experimenting with such things, I'd be very interested in checking out the results.
 
Everybody needs a sacrificial goat Mike.:)

Tell him to go for it. If it's just for play money then what's he got to lose?
 
Greg Covington said:
Darren....it would be supplemental income only.

I think he got turned on when he saw me squish a billet in the press.
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Greg, well I can certainly understand being turned on by squishing a billet, it is a sexy endeavor for sure! :) It's just not a very profitable one, but as I mentioned and Mike did too above, it can be somewhat profitable within small regions at first. Being a knifemaking supplier isn't a very profitable business to be in. You definitely do it because you enjoy the people you do business with. Tell him to look at the steel that Thunderforge Damascus is doing, and be able to produce different patterns than they make at competitive prices and that should be good enough to get him started. There are a lot of stock removal only makers out there that buy Damascus, you just need to make something different and find a way to tap into that market.

Fitzo, I agree with your updated comments and your original ones too...I knew what you meant. :) I've been off email for a couple days and have a long list of emails I'm in the process of catching up with...I see yours in there, and will fire off that info tonight! :)

-Darren
 
Darren Ellis said:
Tell him to look at the steel that Thunderforge Damascus is doing, and be able to produce different patterns than they make at competitive prices and that should be good enough to get him started.
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If you're going to try and compete with the prices of Thunderforged, you might have a hard time making any money. The prices for custom makers of damascus has always been high (my father hasn't changed his prices since the 80s), mostly thanks to Bill Moran, who built it up as the most mystical hard to make material ever devised, which it probably seemed like at the time. I guess when you're first trying to sell stuff you might want to start out cheap, but maybe a little more than Thunderforged, as long as you can have some higher quality stuff (not altogether hard to do).
 
Greg

have him start out with good prices that are backed up with record of no problems, no one wants to get into a billet and
find problems in it later, that is a monumental key,,
where you can make knives Greg, show off his work to start with in your knives,

send me a free test piece :footinmou I mean send out some free to use and try out..
just ask the makers to show it off , find a select few to do this, so you get top notch
work to complement the Damascus.. if he stays on top of it he'll do fine..
 
Larrin said:
The prices for custom makers of damascus has always been high (my father hasn't changed his prices since the 80s), mostly thanks to Bill Moran, who built it up as the most mystical hard to make material ever devised, which it probably seemed like at the time. QUOTE]

Larrin, I think if anyone started out with three large-ish pieces of 1/2" thick stock, a small power hammer, and had to make that many folds, as Moran did, it would seem about as hard as anything in knifemaking could possibly be. No wonder it seemed mystical.

We've come a long way......
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