How much to do yourself on a knife?

Patrice Lemée

Patrice Lemée

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Aug 13, 2002
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What made me think about his is mostly engraving. I mean, I need to invest in better equipment for my shop and since funds are limited after all I have to decide what is more important. But I am also wondering if pursuing engraving alongside knifemaking is a wise decision for someone with a limited amount of shop time like me. I see other makers, fist example that comes to mind is Bruce Bump, that are outsourcing engraving. Since in Bruce's case it is surely not for lack of talent, there must be other reasons for choosing to do this.
Of course this question is not limited to engraving but any of knifemaking processes that can be outsourced.
How do you decide what to do yourself and what to have done by others?

PS: I posted in the custom section cause I thought it would be where I can get feedback from the most knifemakers who have done this long enough to have asked themselves this question. I hope it's ok.
 
Patrice,
The short answer: Do as much as you possibly can yourself, as long as you can see yourself happy with the end result.

I know that engraving would be something I would not take up myself. But having seen your work I feel it could take you in many artistic directions. I would be excited to see what you came up with.
 
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Engraving to me is kind of its own thing that stands apart from the general and decided preference that absent a ollaboration, the maker should do all the work on the knife. I would venture a guess that outsourcing engraving represents the rule, rather than the exception, over the contemporary history of custom knives.

I have owned both sole authorship and outsourced engraved pieces that I like equally well. From my perspective as a collector, the primary questions are 1) how well is the engraving executed, 2) how well does it suit the knife and 3) is it a net positive value (eg. people don`t generally put $2k worth of engraving on a $500 knife). Who did the engraving (maker versus someone else) is secondary (though as with who made the knife, who did the engraving can significantly inform the assessment of overall value).

I can feel some high end art folder types getting their feathers ruffled, so let me add what should be ovbvious in terms of context - I`m addressing engraving as it relates forged fixed blades.
 
Patrice Lemée;11561990 said:
I see other makers, fist example that comes to mind is Bruce Bump, that are outsourcing engraving. Since in Bruce's case it is surely not for lack of talent, there must be other reasons for choosing to do this.
Click to expand...

Because engravers need jobs ;)
 
I believe a maker should do what he does best. If I engraved my own knife its possible that the value would be less. Some makers are just the opposite, they have the talent to make the knife and do the engraving too. Ron Newton, Bailey Bradshaw and Rick Eaton come to mind. Someday I hope to also engrave my work and am actually collecting the equipment right now. The natural ability to draw is another matter but there have been times I was dissapointed with the engraving because he didnt see through my eyes. Some engravers want to get things done fast but others (the ones that are backlogged) have the ability to see the flow of the makers intent. I have ground off the engraving on a couple knives as they were such a mismatch and poorly done. How about a deer in a misty meadow on a pirate knife? You get my message.
 
Overview: What's holding you from reaching the 'next level'?

Knifemaking Equipment?
Finding time to produce?
Need to learn new skills (or improve existing)?
Desire?

I'm not sure where engraving may fit into this synopsis, but I'll bet it's not at the top of the pyramid.

This said, I am always impressed by quality makers who have the ability to engrave.

That said, there is NO desire for mediocre or 'average' engraving. It HAS to be an embellishment (read: ADD appeal)

Your time spent learning may will cut into your limited shop time (your words).

Good question, only you can answer. Prove me 'wrong'. ;)

Coop
 
Thanks for your input guys.
I appreciate your collector's perspective Roger, interesting, as well as your way to look at it Jim, I have to think on that.
As Ryan said, I am interested in the artistic directions that engraving could take me rather than just the classic engraving itself. I mean I want to use engraving techniques to bring some of the ideas I have to life, if that makes sense. I little like using jewelry making techniques in knifemaking. Not that I have anything against classic engraving. It is gorgeous when well done but I don't think I can ever get to that level.
In that sense, I feel a little better getting setup for engraving or other techniques but your input also essential for me in deciding what to do.
 
I hope my above reply doesnt sound like sour grapes. Its just that after spending days, weeks or even months on a knife there is nobody that has the same mind or passion for it like the maker himself.
 
I've thought about learning engraving for years. I took Ray Cover's first class along with other friends and family mainly so he could perfect his curriculum, but I also wanted to see what I could do with good equipment and instruction. I think I could do a decent job, but until this year have lacked the funds. And as much as I THINK I could do okay, I KNOW I would never be as good as Ray or Brian Hochstrat. Scrolls maybe, but not figure studies for sure.

Sole authorship is nice if you can do it all well. Engraving and knifemaking are not the same skills and not all makers can engrave well. John W. Smith is good at both. So is Fred Carter. Others as well, although I think that most makers have some limitations in their engraving that good engravers do not have. However, some makers are not. One comes to mind whose knife work is great and pretty complex in the embellishment he's done for years, but he started engraving a few years ago to maintain that pure sole authorship title he likes so much. His engraving is best described as terrible and actually detracts from the knives!

If you feel you are good at making knives and you either don't have the time or the money for engraving, I think you are better off working closely with a good engraver. Ray Cover and I have known each other for many years and are very close friends. We've had the ability to get into each others' heads, and in the end come up with some nicely engraved projects, both knives and pens. And to me collaborating with another artist is better because with Ray for example the end result is better than just the two segments, the knife and the engraving. Engraving for the sake of sole authorship if your engraving is less than what an engraver can do can take away from the knife, resulting in a lesser knife.

David Broadwell
 
Hello , I learn engraving for a two years in the gunmaking school in Liege (evening cors) I learn gunsmithing on the day school, in this days a start making knives and make my engraving, but in this aria is many interpentant engravers who works just for engraving
and I have to work very hard to beat them, so I ask them if I need some engraving, my engraving is very cheap and I have not time to be a good engraver. I make on blade for one of them because he have some idea in his minde .
1072_4775994248616_1643331596_n.jpg

The knife is not finish I have to make the bolsters and handle on the knife. So if you are not a good engraver for a nice knife you have made is better to a have it engraved by a master, it is like Holland & Holland they dont make all engraving on the guns they made.
Have a nice day
Johann Vilhjalmsson in www.icelandicknives.com
 
Hello , I learn engraving for a two years in the gunmaking school in Liege (evening cors) I learn gunsmithing on the day school, in this days a start making knives and make my engraving, but in this aria is many interpentant engravers who works just for engraving
and I have to work very hard to beat them, so I ask them if I need some engraving, my engraving is very cheap and I have not time to be a good engraver. I make on blade for one of them because he have some idea in his minde .
1072_4775994248616_1643331596_n.jpg

The knife is not finish I have to make the bolsters and handle on the knife. So if you are not a good engraver for a nice knife you have made is better to a have it engraved by a master, it is like Holland & Holland they dont make all engraving on the guns they made.
Have a nice day
Johann Vilhjalmsson in www.icelandicknives.com
 
Jim, obviously desire is not an obstacle to reaching the next level. I would say lack of shop time is the main problem followed, but not closely, by lack of equipment. I say not closely because seeing some top makers who made it to the top with even less tools than I have now, it is obviously possible. But I still think a few more toys...sorry tools ;), are necessary. Lack of engraving is not something holding me back since I still have a ways to go with the “basic” knifemaking. But I am interested in it, as I said above, as more of a way of sculpting metal. I would need a lot of time learning the “classic” engraving before I could do it at a level on par with my knifemaking skills. I would not want, like David said, engraving that actually pulled down the quality of my knives instead of elevating it.

So talking with you guys made me realize two things. First, I don't have enough time, right now anyway, to embark on the “classic” engraving journey. But I do want to use engraving tools and techniques as a way of carving metal. Not sure if I it is the best description of what I want to do but it's the only way I can think of describing it.

Of course I still love engraving and would love to be able to cooperate with an engraver David but I think that I still have a long way to go before I am good enough to do that.

Thanks again, I really appreciate your help in this.
 
This thread embarks on a topic that is always on my mind. I have SO much respect for the modern bladesmith/renaissance man who can do it all. I just LOVE metal work and am fascinated with so many aspects that I simply want to learn them just to learn them. If I'm able to incorporate it into my bladesmithing so much the better. But, like mentioned above, it takes huge amounts of time to master some of these new techniques. Sometimes I take the tack of learning some of these things as a separate hobby from my profession.. but then the duties of a father of a 2 and 4 year old remind me that hobbies often have to take a back burner.

And then there is the whole topic of modern sole authorship versus the historical practice of having a cutler do the overall design and then outsource to all the specialists in their crafts... It's hard not to admire the guy who can pull off sole authorship on complex projects.. but the practicality of the old method certainly makes sense.
 
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