How old is the traditional Jagdnicker?

[Dan D'Silva]

Hello,
For various reasons I'm looking into what kind of knife someone who had been in both the U.S. and Europe in the 1860s might've picked up, and I'm looking at all options. Of course there are the Sheffields, Green Rivers, etc., but I really like the look of the old-fashioned Jagdnicker. When did this design develop? I know there are hunting trousses dated to the 17th century where the by-knives look very much like Jagdnickers with full-profile tangs, but they don't have the finger guards, and for all I know, the similarities could be purely coincidental.

 

[afishhunter]

this guy https://fimbulmyrk.blogspot.com/2011/09/morphology-of-german-jagdnicker.html says they date back to at least the middle ages ... maybe longer ....

I never heard of them before, so had to look them up.

 

[Dan D'Silva]

Thank you. That's interesting, and I know there were actually Bronze Age knives that look weirdly similar as well. But I have to assume that if you go far back enough, the ancestors of the modern versions probably didn't look quite the same, even if the overall design would still be recognizable.

 

[afishhunter]

You're Welcome.
What I wanna know is: HOW they got close enough to the deer to "stab it in the neck, at the base of the head ..." or to get to with-in sword distance, for that matter.
Were the average hunter (and/or "poacher" since all the game animals "belonged" to the upper-upper-upper class/royalty, and they were not in the habit of allowing the peasants to hunt anything.) of the middle ages and before, that much better at stalking, than even the best stalk and shoot hunters of today are, to get with-in knife or sword distance?
Somehow, I just can't see anyone from the middle ages, regardless of social status/position, dropping out of the trees onto the deer's (or any other critter's) back to stab it in the neck ...

 

[Dan D'Silva]

Well, probably this is after they've shot it, which would make the knife conceptually a bit like a hunting sword. Personally I would ask whether there was any chance the downed but not yet dead deer in question could start flailing around.

I'm from PA... they don't make deer like that here.

 

[screened porch]

Never mind.

 

[eisman]

The use of the knife to administer the final cut to the game is traditional in German hunting. It's a carry over from when game was often brought down by dogs or with weapons that do not kill as efficiently as do modern firearms. Anyone who's hunted with bow or black powder can tell you they often find the game still alive after being shot. Cutting the jugular finishes the job. It's not unknown for hunters to get hurt doing this either.

Another tradition in Germany is to dip the brush on ones hat in the blood of the first kill. Strictly speaking you shouldn't have a brush on your cap unless you made your kill. This is less common these days.

The Jagdknicker is a very useful knife, and as much a part of traditional wear as is the skean dubh of the Highlands. It's not uncommon to see them being worn in rural Germany (especially the south).

There is also a traditional hunting short sword, and that was used as primary weapon as well.

 

[Jack Black]

There is also a traditional hunting short sword, and that was used as primary weapon as well.

Here's a German Hunting Sword from the Royal Armouries collection.

 

[afishhunter]

. Anyone who's hunted with bow or black powder can tell you they often find the game still alive after being shot.

Hmmm ... that sounds like me ... though i must admit a .45, .50, and .54 caliber patched round ball (actual round ball diameter 0.01 inch less) that had 120-140 grains Fg or FFg black powder behind it before I made the shot, usually didn't suffer or wonder "what happened?", after I put the lead ball through the boiler room.

(I kept my shots under 50~60 yards. I haven't hunted with my bows yet. Shots will be no more than 20~25 yards with them, and no ambushing from the treetops. I don't consider that hunting or fair chase... and I don't like heights, anyway.)

 

[Sidehill Gouger]

I've never hunted deer in Germany but I once picked up a hunting book over there that showed how these knives were to be inserted at the spot where the neck joins the skull. This was the traditional way to insure the deer was finished off in a humane manner.

 

[Dan D'Silva]

Hi again.

So I would considering ordering parts for one of these from Weber Messer just because... well, I really like the style.

Here's the blade. They only list steel type (440C), not hardness. I am informed that this blade is 4mm thick, not counting the finger guard.

Total price for a blade, stag roll, hardware, sheath and shipping would be around 75USD. I've occasionally seen complete Jagdnickers of similar size cheaper on eBay. Assuming another listing comes up, which choice do you think would be more worthwhile?

Edit: Dang, I either got confused or didn't have my glasses on when I read the product page. That clearly says 4116, not 440C.

Edit 2: Aha! And switching to the Deutsch version of the page tells me that it is Härte 56 RC.

 

[eisman]

I think that if you have the skills (or even if you just think you do) this is a very fair price for a project that will provide you with a useful tool that you have an interest in obtaining. As you have noted you can find a complete knife for approximately the same price. But with one you have assembled yourself you gain a fair sense of accomplishment and bragging rights. You'll probably learn something too, so it's pretty much a win/win. $75 is pretty cheap when you come right down to it for everything you stand to gain.

 

[Wild Ben]

Hmmm ... that sounds like me ... though i must admit a .45, .50, and .54 caliber patched round ball (actual round ball diameter 0.01 inch less) that had 120-140 grains Fg or FFg black powder behind it before I made the shot, usually didn't suffer or wonder "what happened?", after I put the lead ball through the boiler room.

(I kept my shots under 50~60 yards. I haven't hunted with my bows yet. Shots will be no more than 20~25 yards with them, and no ambushing from the treetops. I don't consider that hunting or fair chase... and I don't like heights, anyway.)

My experience with the patched ball exactly. Very quick killer at medium range with enough powder.

 

[Dan D'Silva]

I'm toying with the idea of using a modified Lauri blade, mainly since the tang looks sturdier, in case unforeseen circumstances saw it being used for heavier work like woodcarving. The bolted end would be covered by the buttcap. The blade looks a little stumpy, but it might not look too bad if I could fabricate a finger guard (I will be ordering some nickel silver stock for another project and should have more than enough left over).

Any thoughts? Another idea I had was, if ordering a Weber blade, to silver solder a threaded extension on -- that or have the local welder attach it, but that'd cost more. Either way, it would still be a rat tail.

 

[eisman]

I wouldn't put a finger guard or heavy bolsters on that blade, many Jagd's don't have them and I think it would look "funny". And as far as the blade profile goes, it's not all that drastically different than the Weber blade's.

I would aim to keep the top of the stag as close to being in line with the top of the blade profile. I think you'll find it more comfortable to use.

 

[Arathol]

I wouldn't put a finger guard or heavy bolsters on that blade, many Jagd's don't have them and I think it would look "funny". And as far as the blade profile goes, it's not all that drastically different than the Weber blade's.

I would aim to keep the top of the stag as close to being in line with the top of the blade profile. I think you'll find it more comfortable to use.

Many older Jagdnickers are made that way, with a larger bolster and finger guard, especially the smaller kleiner jagnickers. This one is probably close to 100 years old.

 

[Dan D'Silva]

Here we are. I eventually decided I didn't want to monkey around with modifying the tang or forcing a different blade to be something it isn't. So I went with the full-tang model. A bit less elegant but it has more integrity as a concept, I think, and no worries about strength.

I envisioned this one as being owned by a sailor for self-defense, so it's all stainless steel and brass, with stabilized grips. I figure the ideal design for its sheath is one that's secure against the knife popping out accidentally so it won't go plunging into the ocean never to be seen again, but also easily removed from your belt and locked in a glove compartment when you're about to enter a premises that doesn't allow knives. What do you all think of the German two-part design with separate sheath and frog, and snapped straps around the grip and finger guard? Does it need improvement? And what kind of leather treatments and thread would hold up to a maritime environment?

 

[meako]

The dogs would have chased the deer until it was knackered ( hence the term knick knack *)
Bailed it up ....the hunter would pribably have lanced it and the knife would deliver the death blow.....that is my take on pre ballistic hunting...the dogs would do most of the work...

*not true

 

[Dan D'Silva]

All done. I wound up making a sheath with an attached belt loop but also a belt dangler and screw carabiner so it can be removed easily.

Though frankly, I think the line 20 snaps open just a little bit too easily to feel really secure.

BTW, I found a Hirschfanger dated to 1893 with a very modern-looking Jagdnicker as the by-knife. The only difference is it's got a narrow flat (like a saber grind that's almost a flat grind) and the finger guard is smaller, though I think it may actually have been ground down to fit into a narrower side pocket. So that brings the modern form back to the 1890s at latest.

Anyway, thanks for all of your advice. It feels good to finish a project once in a while.