How practical is the asymmetrical bevel?

D

dvcavall

Joined
Sep 6, 2001
Messages
38
I have recently become aware of the Busse line of knives, and as I am looking to purchase a new field knife, thought I'd ask what may admittedly by a very naive question. Like many of you, I have spent a little time in nature, and appreciate a tuff knife, a well conceived and designed knife, and of course one that cuts. Clearly, the BUSSE line of knives possess these qualities.

However, one additional attribute I prize is ease of maintenance. In a true survival, combat or wilderness situation it is doubtful that one will have a power sharpner, barbers strop, compound an the like. You may have a small retractable diamond sharpner, a Gerber Steel or maybe just a small stone? The reality is, a soldier, explorer or outdoorsman should be able to easily and quickly maintain a fine edge with minmum equipment or technique.

I have read several discussions and posting that have made me wonder just how practical the asymmetrical edge is? I don't challenge it's advantages, just it's practicallity. If many of you have trouble maintaining the correct edge angles with all the right equipment, how in the world can someone hope to maintain the proper geometry in the field with minimal or perhaps no sharpening devises other than those good O'l Mother Nature may provide?

I really like these knives, so I hope someone has a reasonable answer for me.
 
Hey Dave...

I also wondered the same thing when I got mine...
The answer is pretty simple...

You only actually sharpen the left side of the edge, then strop the right edge on leather or what have you...

I think this would be a very easy blade to sharpen in the field.Albeit that I'm not a professional, or actually even very good at sharpening without some decent tools,, but I think even I could manage to sharpen a Busse on a rock.

With a small stone, DMT or something in the field you've got it made in the shade.. You can strop it on a soft tree if you have to...

Just my view of it..

ttyle

Eric....
 
Hey Eric;
What the heck are you doing up so early this am?making kydex creations also?Have a good weekend.
Dave
My Busse's like the sharpmaker & a strop but I have sharpened them on a small DMT diamond stone that I plane to attach to a sheath for feild use,it seams like you just have to sharpen the flat edge then knock off the wire edge that forms on a peice of cardboard or somthing similar hope this helps.
 
dvcavall :

In a true survival, combat or wilderness situation it is doubtful that one will have a power sharpner, barbers strop, compound an the like.
Click to expand...

In such a situation, getting a razor edge on your knife is not going to be a crital factor. The complaints about sharpening knives in general are not that they can't be made sharp, but with an inability to obtain the elusive "shaving" sharp status. We are talking about something that makes a small effect in regards to overall cutting ability, next to nothing in regards to large tasks like chopping.

The dual edge provides the partial strength of a convex bevel while leaving the other half flat for ease of sharpening. The problem most people have is in dealing with the convex side of the bevel and removing the burr formed after oversharpening the flat side. In a truely critical situation as long as the bevels meet you will be satisfied with the performance of your knife. If the worst problem you have is that there is a burr on the edge, and it can't shave smoothly then you really don't have anything to worry about.

How do you remove the burr? You just use an abrasive that will conform to the convex bevel. A flat hone can do this if you arc it over the bevel, but this takes some practice. The best method is to use an abrasive compound. I carry a piece of fine sandpaper, duct taped one to the back of my sheath for emergency situations. Just place that on your leg and strop the convex bevel. If this is lost, well then just put a more obtuse flat bevel over the convex bevel.

Far more important than possible problems with a burr are the gain in durability/cutting ability of the edge bevel. And as well, it is only an edge bevel, if you are not satisfied with the way it performs just change it to whatever you want. The knife will not self-destruct, Busse will not show up at your door ranting about abusive modification to his knives (he could never find me anyway so no worries), and the warrenty will not be voided. Sharpen away.

-Cliff
 
Dave -
As a former Ranger, and having carried one of these puppies in the field, let me just say that Busse knive's rock. They are without peer in durability, strength, usability and overall serviceability (is that a word?). Under tough military field use my Badger Attack would dull a little bit, like when I used it to dig a slit trench through rocky dirt, but after I got back in I honed sharp again. No problem.
If you are worried about servicing the knife in the field, you must mean to have use for it in the field - and these knives are the best for those of us who intend to use them - and abuse them, without mercy (so on).
Get your knife and a small stone and head out. Drop me a note when you change religion.

Terry
 
It is clear that all on this forum are indeed fans of these knives. You have just about convinced me that maintaining an edge in the field is not a monumental task. You see, I have always been a fan of the KISS method. I have had the pleasure to spend some time in the shops of some great knife makers like Bob Loveless, who also put a shaving edge on their knives, use good steel and tempering (sometimes differential tempering) and whose knives can hold an edge longer than most of us need. They also grind a very conventional bevel so that when they dull a bit, 4 swipes on a DMT or similar field item brings the edge back without any special technique or tools.

No, these knives probably wouldn't hold a candle in a cutting contest with BUSSE's knives, but I am not looking to win any cutting contests. I'm looking for a good, usable...and easily maintainable knife for field use. I have seen exotic steels used with exotic tempering and exotic grinds and bevels that would seemingly cut forever. But just try to sharpen one! You need NASA to do it.

With the unconventional bevel on these knives, and the number of people who appear to be challenged in maintaining it, I was a bit concerned that this may not be the best choice for me. I am not totally convinced, but I am closer. As one of you suggested, if the asymmetrical bevel gives me fits, then I'll just put a conventional covex bevel on the thing, and I'll still have a great knife that will keep an edge a long time, and re-sharpen a bit easier.
 
Dave, I assure you that you worry to much about the ease of resharpening a busse edge.I myself worried about the edge configuration on these knives but after using and sharpening I found them to be a pleasure and ease to sharpen.Basically the edge on the right side is cut so steep that you need only to sharpen the left side to catch up when it gets dull.In effect the right side has been sharpened alredy.All I have ever used is small 5 inch ceramic rod in the field and have never had any problems,but remember to sharpen not only when your knife is dull but every other time it is used.Everyone likes to complain about how hard their knife is to resharpen after they used it hard for a year before they decide to touch it up.If anything I see the edge to be the easiest of all edges to sharpen on something like a rock if need be because your only going to worry about one side of the blade.The only drawback to the edge is that when cutting something like a melon the edge pulls sideways a little,but really no big deal.Piece of advice,buy a basic#5 or the Satin Jackyl and save alot of time and money.
 
my solution was to reprofile the edge of my Steel Heart E to a 40 degree V grind. I could never get the hang of sharpening the asymetrical edge to my satisfaction. But I do know how to make this type of symetrical edge wicked sharp. It still holds up to chopping (maybe not as well as the asym edge), but I think it gains an edge (pun intended) in pure cutting (both push and slice) power.
Lenny
 
Lenny,
Thanks for you honesty and suggestion. Given that this is a BUSSE forum, I get the feeling that many of the folks here are quite accomplished at sharpening the asymmetrical bevel. However, since I continue to find discussions and postings of people who also found sharpening this bevel difficult for them, I thought it probably wasn't quite as easy as taking a forward stroke or two of a ceramic rod as shown on the site. I wish I was one of the many who can hold an acute angle freehand, but I'm not. With a simple bevel, I do fine. I may do fine with this one, but thought I'd seek the opinions of others since the Web now affords us this opportunity.

Are you happy with the performance of your knife with the V grind, as compared to other similar knives you might have used? I get the impression that you are. The reason I ask is that no doubt, part of the substantial cost of these knives (substantial to a guy with two kids and my bills anyway) is due to the unique bevel and the performance it has been shown to have. In your opinion, does the INFI steel and design still justify the price with your grind in place?
 
Dave,
I've only used the SH-E hard twice. (with the V bevel)
Both times, it was still shaving sharp afterwards. My hard use consisted of hacking up plants on a wood chopping block. Also, some hard wood chopping. I got a few very small "roll-overs" of the edge which I first steeled out, then touched up the whole thing on a Spyderco Sharpmaker. Granted, these roll-overs wouldn't have happened if the edge was the orig asym config. The big difference though is cutting/slicing food type stuff. The V bevel is definitely superior. Your last question; "In your opinion, does the INFI steel and design still justify the price with your grind in place?" The simple answer is yes. The grind of the edge is merely a personal choice based on the owner's intended use of the knife. To me, What makes a Busse superior is the whole package; INFI seems to be the best steel for hard use, regardless of the edge bevel, The handle, although large and flat, fits my med hands and resists twisting in hard use, the black crinkle coating really resists scuffing and protects the steel, the weight and balance are perfect for such a large knife, and finally, the choil is perfect for choking up and using the knife for more delicate tasks.
In the end, I reprofiled the edge to a std V grind cuz I just couldn't get the hang of sharpening that weird edge. All I need in the field is the Sharpmaker, which packs up to a very small size. For the Asym edge, you would need at least one Sharpmaker rod (or equivalent) and some foam backed abrasive.
Whatever you decide, it's an awesome hard use large knife.
Lenny
 
I am not an accomplished knife sharpener by any means. In fact, until I got a Spyderco Sharpmaker, I did not use my knives very much, simply because I could not resharpen them myself, and I refused to resort to having someone else do it for me.

So of course I was a bit worried about being able to sharpen my Busse's the "right" way..ie, only on one side, using a stropping stroke on a ceramic rod.

Well, I practiced on a Basic #5 that I had traded for, and there is just nothing to it at all. I expected to end up wrecking the edge while I learned to properly sharpen it, but such was not the case.

I used one of the white sticks from my Sharpmaker, holding it free hand, with a stropping stroke, and then stropping both sides with a leather strop. Also, although I am left handed, I used my right hand to sharpen on the sharpmaker rod. Why the right hand? Well, it seems silly, but the sharpening video was with the right, and it was easier to do a "strop stroke" with the right.
In all, sharpening takes me about 10 minutes, going from a bit dull to shaving sharp.

I really don't know why some people have trouble sharpening, but I would say that if I can do it, 99% of the population can do it at least as well, if not better.
 
Thanks Lenny and Mike. With so many folks on both sides, hard to know where I'd be. Too bad BUSSE doesn't offer a "like it or return it" guarantee. Sounds as though he wouldn't get many returns, and those that he did most of us would likely still buy up at a profit to BUSSE Knives. Easy to say I guess, when it's not your business, though many of us wish that it were. Thanks again to everyone.
 
There are a few things about the assymetrical edge that I'd like to mention. First of all, do NOT over sharpen the flat-ground side. I did this the first time, believing that because INFI held such a great edge that it would be hard to sharpen (it's not), and produced a large burr. This burr close to ripped appart my leather strop...some of the leather would even get caught in the burr. So, I had to use a ceramic rod from my Sharpmaker to staighten and cut off some of the burr before stropping. It slowed down the whole operation and took off more metal than was needed. so, be careful.

BTW, after the last incident, I decided I wanted to grind off the assymetrical edge. I was just not sharpening the assymetrical edge very well. However, it did seem to be a very sturdy edge.

One last thing, and this also lead to the grinding off of the assymetrical edge, it seemed to me that when whittling (I'm right handed and when whittling the convex side is the part of the edge that makes contact with the wood), the convex edge did not perform very well. Maybe its just me or I got a bad impression, but I don't think whittling is one of its strongpoints.

If you can sharpen it properly, I would stick with the assymetrical edge. It's durability is great, and after you get the hang of sharpening it should actually be easier to sharpen than a conventional edge (so I hear).

Hope this helps.
 
The asymmetrical edge was designed for "ease" of resharpening. Our tests have shown that troops in the field had much less difficulty in maintaining and resharpening the asymmetrical edge. In fact, there proved to be such a vast difference between a standard convex and our asymmetrical edge, when it came to resharpening, that we adopted it on all of our knives. So, the primary reason that we switched to an asymmetrical edge was for ease of resharpening in the field.

The only surprise that we have encountered was that our asymmetrical edge has proven to be somewhat difficult for those who have mastered the art of resharpening standard edges on other grades of steel. Maintaining and resharpening INFI is simply not that difficult. Oversharpening, like Andrew had mentioned, has been the only problem that we have run across so far.

Always remember this option. We resharpen for free! (Include $6.95 for S&H) You can try the asymmetrical edge and if it turns out to not be your favorite edge of all time then you can send it in for resharpening. At that time we can put on a regular ol' symmetric edge. . . . We have the Technology ;)

Yours in nuclearesharpening,

Jerry Busse
 
Jerry,
Thanks for your thoughts. Since I'm not very good at sharpening any edge freehand, perhaps your edge can only help me.

I do have a question or two for you. Since it is only the edge bevel that is asymmetrical, and not the blade profile, it would seem logical that through repeated sharpenings, or touching up the edge for one reason or another, the edge would need to be reground to maintain the same edge profile. I am guessing, and it's only a guess, that the reason you recommend ceramic and not diamond sticks, is because they remove less metal. Is that true, or do you recommend diamond stick sharpeners as well?

Also, is it obvious to the user when the asymmetrical edge needs to be reworked by your shop? Is it harder to sharpen, cuts poorly,??
Being a flat ground knife (BM), and a heavy knife, the profile probably gets fairly thick,fairly quickly.

There is little chance I would be lucky enough to spend enough time afield to ever be in this situation, but I am curious to know.
 
dvcavall :

through repeated sharpenings, or touching up the edge for one reason or another, the edge would need to be reground to maintain the same edge profile.
Click to expand...

Yes, if you only hone on the flat part of the bevel, eventually you will remove the convex part completely and basically convert the edge to a chisel profile.


I am guessing, and it's only a guess, that the reason you recommend ceramic and not diamond sticks, is because they remove less metal.
Click to expand...

There are a number of reasons why I would not use a diamond rod on the knives. First off the blades tend to get used for a lot of high impact work, and for that you want a strong edge which means a high polish. A diamond rod leaves a very aggressive slicing edge, but one that will quickly break down during any kind of chopping or prying/twisting as the micro-teeth break off and leave large blunt patches.

As well, like you mention Diamond hones are much more aggressive at removing metal. When using a knife for heavy work you tend to cause blunting by edge deformation/impaction. Using a diamond hone would tend to strip away metal when you would want to align it, which is wasteful. While excellent for putting a quick edge on a $10 kitchen knife, this is not something that you want to be doing on a regular basis to a high end blade.

However personal preference does play a part in sharpening, there are a number of people who like the higher slicing aggression of rougher finishes. The best method for you is to simply experiment and find out which method gives the edge the best combination of cutting performance, durability and edge life.

Also, is it obvious to the user when the asymmetrical edge needs to be reworked
Click to expand...

The change will happen very gradually, it is like growing taller, the increments are probably too small to be significant on a daily basis. What you would notice happening as this progressed is an increase in cutting ability, a decrease in edge durability and a greater skew happening during the cut. It is critical to note that it would take a huge amount of sharpening for this to happen combined with a total lack of honing of the convex part of the bevel. Even if you simply worked the edge with a loaded strop on occasion (which you should for maxium edge life), it would significantly increase the time it took to remove the convex part of the edge profile.

Being more specific, unless you were doing something like digging in the dirt on a regular basis, I would be very surprised if you had to sharpen the knife to the extent that it needed to be returned for a reprofile even every couple of years. It takes an extreme amount of work to wear any metal off the edge unless you beat it off. For example, when I first got the blade I attempted to wear the edge down on chopping wood to the extent that the edge was dull enough that it reduced the chopping performance significantly (10+%). After cutting about 10 000 pieces of 2x4's worth of wood (I wasn't cutting 2x4's that is just the rough equivalent, and the reference is clear pine, 7 chops to be specific), I still had not moved beyond needing a loaded strop.

Currently I freshen the edge on sandpaper every once in a while to recut the carbides so the blade will slice aggressively and maintain a high level of edge strength and overall durability. Note that this honing on sandpaper doesn't remove a significant amount of metal, its significantly less than 1/10 of a mm (I measured the edge width with a micrometer before and after sharpening a few times). I go to the sandpaper after some honing on a loaded strop doesn't produce an edge which shaves smoothly and/or doesn't slice as aggressively as I would want.

In terms of overall metal removal, I have probably taken a mm or so of edge off of my Battle Mistress through extended honing sessions. These were never required for sharpening purposes, but were done to either reshape the edge (make it more acute), or to remove damage caused after test cuttings on hardened metal (nails and the like). Note I tend to let such damage accumulate, I don't grind out every flaw in the edge, if I did that I would wear the blade down far to fast. See the next paragraph for more details.

Being a flat ground knife (BM), and a heavy knife, the profile probably gets fairly thick,fairly quickly.
Click to expand...

I had a Basic #7 that went through hell on earth for 2+ years and was used for the most aggressive "cutting" I have ever seen. It was sharpened excessively on a belt sander (don't lend equipment to hillbillies, especially when they are family) and vastly reduced in size. It still cut very well. The chopping ability had been reduced significantly due to the loss in mass however :

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1514533&a=13372300&p=50884869

Guess which one was mine.

-Cliff
 
Geeez Cliff,
Did you drag your knives behind your car for a month or two? Those are the ugliest knives I have ever seen. Thanks for your advice, but remind me never to lend you anything! By the way, doesn't Busse warranty the handles? That epoxy job's a real bute! Thanks for the pictures!
 
dvcavall :

Did you drag your knives behind your car for a month or two?
Click to expand...

No, the roads around here are bad enough as it is, I would not want to make any more holes in them.

By the way, doesn't Busse warranty the handles? That epoxy job's a real bute!
Click to expand...

Yes, the Busse warrenty extends over the handles on the Basic line. The intentional modifications I made were to allow it to form a tighter fit to my hand. The above version is actually significantly cleaner than in its prime, at one time it looked like this :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/basic_7_mod.jpg

That green stuff is a high friction self-adhesive barbed tape. I have it on most of my blades / axes.

-Cliff
 
I looked at the picture of Cliff's highly modified and seriously abused Basic 7 and felt this vibrating at my side. I thought my pager had gone off, but when I checked it showed no new messages. The vibrating was my Basic 7 carried IWB trembling and shaking and whimpering and quivering in terror. Jeez Cliff, you can cause abject terror in a blade without it even being anywhere near you.

I say, "Way to go, dude!!" :D
 
Originally postedby Cliff Stamp
That green stuff is a high friction self-adhesive barbed tape. I have it on most of my blades / axes.

-Cliff [/B]
Click to expand...

Cliff doesn't the tape cause abrasion to your hand on the axes?
Or is it just wrapped around the bottom of the handle?
 
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