How sharp can it be?

[Fred.Rowe]

I posted this in Shop Talk wanting to know what makers think about this. The Custom and Handmade forum is frequented by many collectors and purveyors and I would like to know how you see this as well.

Fred

Each and every knife sold, whether a custom, bench made or factory blade, should be presented to the new owner along with the blades bevel angles and the specific "original" angle at which the edge was sharpened. If the new owner doesn't have this information, how can he select the correct angle to "touch up" the edge when the blade dulls slightly or God forbid, if the blade is chipped, how does the owner chose the angle that "matches" the original.
I think you can assume that the angles that were chosen by the designer/maker of the knife were chosen to compliment the blades geometry and intended use. If this is true then matching the original angles is mandatory. If these "original" numbers aren't reproduced during touch up or resharpening; the new owner could be destroying what the maker of the blade took so much time to create.

Any knife blade can be sharpened; but only to the degree dictated by the blades geometry.

Would you like to know what angles were used to grind and sharpen the blade you are buying? If so let makers know when you purchase a new knife; I'm sure they would be happy to give you this information.

Happy grinding, Fred

 

[MT Damascus]

I think that would be a big help.

 

[D lisch]

I have a little trick that might help you when you sharpen your next knife. take a black sharpie ad make an 1/8 of an inch along both sides of the blade make a pass at the angel you think it should be this will show you where your stone is hitting the edge and help you find the just right angle.

 

[MT Damascus]

I have a little trick that might help you when you sharpen your next knife. take a black sharpie ad make an 1/8 of an inch along both sides of the blade make a pass at the angel you think it should be this will show you where your stone is hitting the edge and help you find the just right angle.

Yes, that is a fine way of finding edge angle, but to know the angles from the maker would save that additional step.

 

[Lorien]

I don't think I'd find that information particularly useful. Edge bevels aren't written in stone, as that is the one aspect of the knife subject to change, (if that knife is used). As a knife edge encounters wears, either through use or sharpening, aspects of the bevels change, and matching the original bevels set by the maker, (assuming they were 'correct' in the first place- sometimes they aren't) takes a back seat to adapting the edge to the changes induced be wear and/or sharpening. The only situation where this might be useful, would be for deeply hollow ground blades, where the material above the edge bevel remains a fairly consistent thickness, but even blades ground in such a way will, over time, wear into the thicker material and be dealt with accordingly.

 

[Don Hanson III]

I don't know what angle my edges are sharpened to. But they are scary sharp!

 

[parbajtor]

You really want to be able to reproduce the factory edge?
Maybe on some of my knives, usually the "specialist" types of blade eg. Whittling knife, skinner, boning knives, filleters etc. More general use tools will often need reprofiling according to use. Makers have to compromise/optimise the angles for a vast range of tasks. Users can often tweak their blades to suit the range of tasks they know the knife will be put through. Users may also want to tweak edge geometry so the first inch up from the handle and the last inch to the tip are optimised for slicing/ cutting ability, whereas you might want an edge more suited for chopping around the "sweet spot". Makers would tend not to do this because they'd likely lose more sales then they gain, because some people would look at the result and think "brand x can't manage to put an even bevel on the blade". Some people would see innovation, others would just see a flaw. It's also why car manufacturers don't tend to get heavily into the alloy wheels market.

It's up to the owner to "personalise" his car. Not much point in the manufacturer providing "spinner" wheel hubs on a 4x4 when the owner spends the whole time driving through mud. Same with knives.

 

[chad2]

yes i would love to have this info.

 

[cbr900son]

Alot of people dont use a system that offers exact degree by degree measurements. In fact that's probably more the exception then the norm.

 

[Hard H2O]

It is pretty easy to find the angle that a blade was originally sharpened to. I almost always reduce the angle when sharpening.

 

[SBranson]

I don't see how this applies unless you use a jig for establishing the edge. As far as I know, most forged customs are usually convex ground to a zero edge then touched up right at the very end after blade treatments. There is no measured angle to provide.

 

[RogerP]

Alot of people dont use a system that offers exact degree by degree measurements. In fact that's probably more the exception then the norm.

I don't see how this applies unless you use a jig for establishing the edge. As far as I know, most forged customs are usually convex ground to a zero edge then touched up right at the very end after blade treatments. There is no measured angle to provide.

My thoughts exactly.

Roger

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

I don't know what angle my edges are sharpened to. But they are scary sharp!

I don't know what mine are, either.
I just always caution my customers to NEVER take the knife out of the sheath unless it's dark. ('Cause the shadow is so sharp it'll cut the leg off a table!)

 

[brownshoe]

For every custom knife, I have asked the maker what angle the edge is at and I've got one of two answers, don't know or the angle. If they say "don't know" I ask what is the recommended angle for sharpening, and I usually get a specific answer. I keep the maker's angle if known, but change it if needed. I think a concientious maker should recommend an edge angle for sharpening, since too acute of an angle for a steel/heat treat combination could negatively effect performance.

David Boye with his "Basic" series (integral fixed blade, chef's blade type, 2-4" in length, dendritic cobalt or 440C) grinds the knife with a sharpening guide built in at the base of the blade. If you start your stone on the angle at the base, you keep the "factory" edge." I have two (one custom, one factory) and kept the maker's profile (10 -15 years) and it has worked well. These are utility knives, thus the edge angle/steel have been matched. They get used regularly in the kitchen and as field knives on vacation. Dendritic steel does not need a lot of steel removal to keep an edge. Only the Basic series has the design element and it works well. I liked it enough to buy another, but IMHO it's effectiveness depends upon the blade design. Boye's designs are very functional.

 

[peterinct]

I agree with the majority in that it is not very useful. EVEN if you did have that information, how many people have sharpening tools capable of dialing in a precise angle. Also, say one does have a tool to dial in a precise angle, how would you know it is calibrated the same as the person that put that angle on the edge?

Dave's "Sharpie" process works well.

Peter

 

[Storm Crow]

I sharpen by hand on a whetrock, by eye and by feel. I can't give a specific number of degrees. They shave hair cleanly when I deliver them, and I provide a video on my website that shows the method I use to sharpen. If a customer doesn't have their own system down yet, they can use mine as a guide if they want.

It's just a different way of doing it. I tend to be a bit more "organic" in making knives than some, going by eye and feel and adjusting accordingly, while others tend go by measurement. Both make good and bad knives, depending on the maker.

 

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

I would like makers to provide more information in general. It seems out of place to spend hundreds of dollars on a knife, only to have it come wrapped in newspaper and that's it. Occasionally I get a business card, but that is all. IMO makers should at least give a thank you note, with basic information about construction materials. I would appreciate a small blurb about why they chose some of the features, mixed with some care methods- but am not ever expecting to see such as it seems to be too much of a time waste to other makers/collectors I've spoken to about this.

I would like a description of approximate angles used (not that I will stick to them), so that i can have a better understanding of the edge as the maker sees it. I have gotten into the habit of asking the maker about finish techniques for the edge, non edged portion of the blade, and handle finish as well. Often it is hard to get even this info out of them. I buy often from less established makers so their techniques are of interest to me, and I have chosen to not purchase when my questions are glossed over.

This being said I feel that too much scrutiny is placed on edge angles (1 degree won't change how a knife works). Place the bevel against the stone and see where it is! If your system doesn't have that exact angle then you have to change it anyways, and the makers angle may not be what is best suited to your uses, and different uses are better at different angles so that will probably change as well. Set angles seem to be only useful in the information package of a display. Rambling but my thoughts.

 

[raylaconico]

I've been asked this many times. I honesly don't know the angle nor do I have a way of measuring it. I just sharpen it so I know it cuts well. That said, I've never needed to know the angle of any knife to be able to sharpen it. It's not like you can follow the exact same angle of the original even if you know what it was anyway. You just get close to it and make your own angle. I mean you look at the edge bevel and follow it by sight, and not by the number degrees given by someone. Don't you look at the edge of the blade while you're sharpening it?

 

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

Don't you look at the edge of the blade while you're sharpening it?

That implies that people actually sharpen their knives!! Funny, once I thought about it- I rarely look at my knives as I sharpen- perfunctory glances now and then but I know what type of edge I am putting on the knife and after thousands of sharpenings I rely mostly on muscle memory!

You mean not every knifemaker has digital calipers to measure bevel thickness every .001" up the bevel and doesnt grind and sharpen with a CNC? Preposterous!! You can't cut with a knife without knowing dimensions down to the atom, just like we know it won't cut unless finished on a 15000 grit authentic Japanese Waterstone blessed by Pope Whateverhisnameis? I can't believe some people.....

 

[Lorien]

it won't cut unless finished on a 15000 grit authentic Japanese Waterstone blessed by Pope Whateverhisnameis? I can't believe some people.....

with a sharp knife, the edge will pop hairs, with a blessedly sharp knife, it will pope hairs