How to avoid being bullshitted

E

EpicHam

Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
73
As the topic says.

Yeah there are hundreds if not thousands of swordsmiths out there ,
there are brands that claim to make katanas out of T-10 steel at $200 USD ,
there are people who make katana out of 1095 at $250
and then there are katanas made of 1060 at $80...

The question is... how do I know they are not bullshitting me?
Without a RHC rig or some spectrography wizardry from the novice's perspective he wouldn't be able to tell what the steel is made of until it snaps in two and slash his arm open.
[video=youtube;2kFgeZtkAb8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kFgeZtkAb8[/video]
Or when its edge chips on dried bamboo.
[video=youtube_share;oe2yo_4G3oU]http://youtu.be/oe2yo_4G3oU?t=1m26s[/video]

Yeah there is the price indicator but for all we know they can jack a sword's price to $300 , slap on a nametag of "Handmade Forged Clay Tempered Folded Steel Katana" and then give us a pot metal piece ... to make it even worse , even if the manufacturer is honest about it , what about the sellers?
With so many counterfeits out there how do I know I'm getting the real deal from the seller after jumping through the flaming hoops in selecting a good forge?

So 3 main hurdles
  1. Selecting Trustworthy Swordsmith
  2. Ensuring the sword is made of what they say
  3. Ensuring you get the real deal from the seller

How do I do that??
 
Yes, in general you will get what you pay for. A forged and quenched katana made with good steel can not be cheap as it is very labor intensive. I would forget about getting anything decent for a few $100's. It would be a good idea to talk with prior purchasers to see what their experiences have been before buying anything.
 
watanabe said:
Yes, in general you will get what you pay for. A forged and quenched katana made with good steel can not be cheap as it is very labor intensive. I would forget about getting anything decent for a few $100's. It would be a good idea to talk with prior purchasers to see what their experiences have been before buying anything.
Click to expand...

but then again its a bit hard to tell tho.
There are Japanese made Nihonto that goes for $5000 at the entry level .
There are South African made Cold Steel that goes for $700-600.
Then there are Chinese made Musashi , Paul Chen , Shinwa ,etc etc that varies in price about as much as you can. From the low end $20 craptana , to a seemingly too good to be true $150 9250 spring steel bodachi .

Sometimes I doubt if the "customer's review" even mean much when most of the sword buyers don't really care for the quality as so much as having a sword like object.

Look at this for example.
http://www.amazon.com/United-Cutlery-Black-Ninja-Sword/dp/B00062BO52/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
This sword like object ...
Its customer's testimonial?
JNfrbPt.png
 
Thousand of swordsmiths? Maybe, but I doubt it. I think it's a dying art. Not swords, they are manufactured by many many companies. But men who forge swords, not so much any more. Opinion only.
 
The quality of hot stamped (machine forged) blades depend on the quality of the tooling. Good 1095 steel will only cost @$10.00 US. The cost the rest of the materials (brass and copper fittings) maybe $30.00. Machining to 0.001", the heat treatment on the blades (batched), fitting everything together, polishing, packing, shipping, might take another 2 or 3 hours. Such a sword would have, with the exception of the blade, lower quality materials. However, the weight and balance will be good. And the edge will be good. Such a sword will wholesale for less than $200.00 and retail for $300 - $400. By streamlining the manufacturing to the bare minimum, and slicing the profit margin, a company could put a good sword on the street for $200. This is the reason the Ford model T was so successful. Or Mora and Russell Green River knives. I think the best bet is to go with a known manufacturer who has a track record for making good entry level swords. That being said, everyone knows that a Model T is not a Deusenberg. Generally, the cost goes up faster than the quality.
 
Hey EpicHam -thing is with the Musashi 1060 DH it is stating that it is a ligth to medium cutter. It is not meant for seasoned hardened bamboo. If you are looking to cut something like that, then maybe the CAS Hanwei Raptor Katana is what you are looking for. Now you will pay more, but if you are looking for cutting heavier stuff, the Raptor series is great. In fact I have one waiting for me along with the raptor waki.

Here is a great video on the raptor....

[video=youtube_share;eWjJyHaXFyk]http://youtu.be/eWjJyHaXFyk[/video]

In the end, you get what you pay for. I have been very pleased with Musashi for the money spent. I own two Musashi swords and getting more.

Ray
CR
 
The most important thing to me when I'm buying a blade is the heat treat. They can tell you whatever they want, but at the end of the day, anything even remotely close to a 100 dollar price point is going to be questionable when it comes to the quality of the heat treat. Most of those are tempered very soft. They won't hold a good edge for long, or will be tempered too hard and will snap. There are a few out there, but most of the reviews you'll see will be from people who don't know anything (and if they did, they probably wouldn't be buying those). That's not to say that there aren't some real gems out there, but when you buy a cheap sword, quality control is going to be hit or miss, and most are generally going to be mediocre.

They'll get the job done for most people who buy a sword, because most people are just going to hang stuff on the wall and maybe cut a few water bottles or pool noodles, and they're used to crap $5 gas station specials for knives, or kitchen knives from the dollar store, so they think spending $100 on a sword is a good idea, and even though the sword may not be the best quality, it's still better than what they've been using.

The good news is, a low budget sword, such as a Musashi, is plenty good for most people's purposes. The things that make such a blade unsatisfactory for a more discriminating buyer won't enter most people's radar.

When you're buying a sword, look at the heat treat. Is it done by a reputable company, or does the manufacturer have a good reputation for quality control? Do they actually advertise the hardness? That's usually a good sign, because it means that the quality control is good enough for them to make those claims. "Handmade folded steel" etc is just a marketing gimmick to ensnare the uninformed buyer. Doesn't mean anything, because they could have used crap steel, or fubbed the heat treat. Ditto "high carbon steel," (and damascus steel for that matter--you won't find a good damascus steel sword for under 500, if that, IMHO). "Battle ready" is another marketing gimmick. All that means is that it's sharp. Doesn't mean it won't break on you. Razor sharp is also usually a lie. That often means it's just had an edge thrown on quickly on a machine, which probably ruined the temper on the edge. The more information you can find about the steel and the hardness, the better off you're going to be, in my opinion.
 
crimsonfalcon07 said:
The most important thing to me when I'm buying a blade is the heat treat. They can tell you whatever they want, but at the end of the day, anything even remotely close to a 100 dollar price point is going to be questionable when it comes to the quality of the heat treat. Most of those are tempered very soft. They won't hold a good edge for long, or will be tempered too hard and will snap.
Click to expand...

So as a base line, what is considered a "good edge" and how long should it last? What are swords used to cut that allows a judgement to be made?
 
I've had a few of these that wouldn't even give me a cut if I tried after negligible use. Good edge depends on what the user wants to do with it. I think we all have our own ideas about what counts as a decent edge, but at minimum, it should be able to cut stuff. Preferably without chipping out. That's not always the case with some of the swords that people purchase at the price point mentioned.
 
Well, lets say the edge would still be able to do something like cut a paper towel roll sitting on a table?
 
me2 said:
Well, lets say the edge would still be able to do something like cut a paper towel roll sitting on a table?
Click to expand...

1. That is not easy to do for the best cutter.

2. Edge better be damned keen,,,,,otherwise, it won't make the cut.

3. How durable is that edge...how many cuts on the roll, how many mat cuts?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
crimsonfalcon07 said:
The most important thing to me when I'm buying a blade is the heat treat. They can tell you whatever they want, but at the end of the day, anything even remotely close to a 100 dollar price point is going to be questionable when it comes to the quality of the heat treat. Most of those are tempered very soft. They won't hold a good edge for long, or will be tempered too hard and will snap. There are a few out there, but most of the reviews you'll see will be from people who don't know anything (and if they did, they probably wouldn't be buying those). That's not to say that there aren't some real gems out there, but when you buy a cheap sword, quality control is going to be hit or miss, and most are generally going to be mediocre.

They'll get the job done for most people who buy a sword, because most people are just going to hang stuff on the wall and maybe cut a few water bottles or pool noodles, and they're used to crap $5 gas station specials for knives, or kitchen knives from the dollar store, so they think spending $100 on a sword is a good idea, and even though the sword may not be the best quality, it's still better than what they've been using.

The good news is, a low budget sword, such as a Musashi, is plenty good for most people's purposes. The things that make such a blade unsatisfactory for a more discriminating buyer won't enter most people's radar.

When you're buying a sword, look at the heat treat. Is it done by a reputable company, or does the manufacturer have a good reputation for quality control? Do they actually advertise the hardness? That's usually a good sign, because it means that the quality control is good enough for them to make those claims. "Handmade folded steel" etc is just a marketing gimmick to ensnare the uninformed buyer. Doesn't mean anything, because they could have used crap steel, or fubbed the heat treat. Ditto "high carbon steel," (and damascus steel for that matter--you won't find a good damascus steel sword for under 500, if that, IMHO). "Battle ready" is another marketing gimmick. All that means is that it's sharp. Doesn't mean it won't break on you. Razor sharp is also usually a lie. That often means it's just had an edge thrown on quickly on a machine, which probably ruined the temper on the edge. The more information you can find about the steel and the hardness, the better off you're going to be, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Raymond673 said:
Hey EpicHam -thing is with the Musashi 1060 DH it is stating that it is a ligth to medium cutter. It is not meant for seasoned hardened bamboo. If you are looking to cut something like that, then maybe the CAS Hanwei Raptor Katana is what you are looking for. Now you will pay more, but if you are looking for cutting heavier stuff, the Raptor series is great. In fact I have one waiting for me along with the raptor waki.

Here is a great video on the raptor....

[video=youtube_share;eWjJyHaXFyk]http://youtu.be/eWjJyHaXFyk[/video]

In the end, you get what you pay for. I have been very pleased with Musashi for the money spent. I own two Musashi swords and getting more.

Ray
CR
Click to expand...

That is true but in order to get some of Paul Chen's stuff , that calls for almost DOUBLE the cost.
Now obviously Paul Chen only does the high end stuff with some entry level side business swords and polearms and from the web page they DO offer a LOT more info than those who aren't , but $200-300 is still quite a bit out of my price range.

So that probably locks me into the Ronin , Musashi , Shinwa and Mashiro range...
Since your ears are lower to the ground than I am , how does the price progression affects the Musashi lineup?
I see there are the Musashi Bamboo that cost $80 ,but then if you're willing to pay a bit more you can have a Masahi Katana by Musashi
http://www.musashiswords.com/shop/product.php?productid=172&cat=36&page=1
d_1177.jpg

d_1179.jpg

d_1175.jpg


What about the Ronin Dojo RK series?
They also have some swords in the similar price range.
http://sbg-sword-store.sword-buyers-guide.com/specials.html
Even endorsed by SBG owner Paul Southren .
But when I look at the specs its just a 1045 blade , and its also made on Longquan .
rk-hamon1.jpg


And speaking of Longquan , I heard there is a 50 year old Forge called Longquan Baojian that has a longer history than any other forges in the region.
http://longquan-baojian.com/
Obviously the site is going to be in Chinese but anyway what do you guys think ?
They also have a sword in the same price range.
http://longquan-baojian.com/goods.php?id=726
IMG_9705.jpg

IMG_9694.jpg

IMG_9697.jpg

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As for the Mashiro stuff I heard they're a bit hit and miss with some shoody QA so I'm not so sure about that but always appreciate some alternative opinions.

What do ya'll think?
 
Again, the more information they'll give you about steel, heat treat, and hardness, the better off you're going to be. Always choose a sword that mentions the specific type of steel used over one that just says "hand forged high carbon steel." And always pick something that will tell you the RC over one that doesn't. Both are good indicators of more aggressive quality control.

I've heard a lot of good stuff about Ronin, particularly the Dojo Pro lineup. Most Musashi owners seem to like them a lot, although in my experience they're tempered a little softer than I'd like, which makes them pretty tough, but not the best cutters. I'd avoid Masahiro and Shinwa both. I know nothing about the Chinese forge you mention. Most of the cheap stuff is going to be made in China anyways.

In your place, I would be patient and save up again until I had at least 200-300 to spend. But then, I may have different demands from my sword than you.

What exactly do you want to do with your sword? I'd also be spending a little on a good quality training blade and lessons, but again, I may have different demands for the sword than you.
 
Kohai999 said:
1. That is not easy to do for the best cutter.

2. Edge better be damned keen,,,,,otherwise, it won't make the cut.

3. How durable is that edge...how many cuts on the roll, how many mat cuts?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

The best cutter being the person or the sword? Any way to describe the required edge in terms of more knife familiar achievements: paper slicing, arm shaving, etc? How often are swords sharpened when cutting mats? Can you make it through a demonstration or competition without sharpening a good sword?
 
By cutter, he's talking about the person.

Have you actually done any cutting yourself? And would you not, perhaps, be better suited to make your own thread rather than hijack this one with something that's peripheral to the OP's interest and that he hasn't seemed to be all that interested in? I think a lot of your questions would be answered with some actual experience and/or research, or just by actually listening to STeven, who actually DOES have a significant amount of experience. I'm really unclear on what the point of your comments and questions is.

At the end of the day, "good edge" depends on what the user needs the sword to do, and that's going to vary widely from one buyer to another. If you're in this because you're thinking about a sword, you need to put some serious thought into what you want to do with your sword. Nothing you've asked about so far is meaningful without context that has not yet been provided.

You may find it interesting to know that the world record for cutting mats is 252 cuts in 3 minutes, done by Isao Machii in 2011. It should be pretty obvious that he's not resharpening in the middle of that. It should also be obvious that nothing made by Musashi is going to come even remotely close, even in very skilled hands. As always, you get what you pay for.
 
crimsonfalcon07 said:
Again, the more information they'll give you about steel, heat treat, and hardness, the better off you're going to be. Always choose a sword that mentions the specific type of steel used over one that just says "hand forged high carbon steel." And always pick something that will tell you the RC over one that doesn't. Both are good indicators of more aggressive quality control.

I've heard a lot of good stuff about Ronin, particularly the Dojo Pro lineup. Most Musashi owners seem to like them a lot, although in my experience they're tempered a little softer than I'd like, which makes them pretty tough, but not the best cutters. I'd avoid Masahiro and Shinwa both. I know nothing about the Chinese forge you mention. Most of the cheap stuff is going to be made in China anyways.

In your place, I would be patient and save up again until I had at least 200-300 to spend. But then, I may have different demands from my sword than you.

What exactly do you want to do with your sword? I'd also be spending a little on a good quality training blade and lessons, but again, I may have different demands for the sword than you.
Click to expand...

I see.
I've talked with Dan from Kult of Athena a bit and he too recommends me to save up a bit for the Hanwei's Practical katana Classic but when I look at the specs of the katana.
But from what I've read on the Sword Buyers Guide : http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/practical-katana.html
its not exactly the most economical choice when we consider what is on the market atm...

As for what's my expectation from a sword.
Well , I already have a Groove boken myself , more self taught than anything since people round my place are more into guns than traditional pieces.
I'm looking for something that'll give me the HEFT of a real steel and the danger of a live blade. All this training means nothing when you can't perform the same with a live blade , due to fear , a lack of confidence and familiarity with a real steel blade.
What I'm looking for in a katana.
A real hamon , not the acid etched or sandblasted kind .
Folded blade preferably with T10/1045 composition or deferentially hardened 1060
RHC in the 50-60 range at the ha and kisaski , possibly higher .
Preferably katate maki wrapping.

I've seen a few of such examples in the 150 range .
http://www.musashiswords.com/shop/product.php?productid=174&cat=36&page=1
http://www.ebay.com.hk/itm/370899203376?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clay-Temper...329?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c63705199
If it is REALLY worth the extra, I won't mind spending a tad more into the $250 range (oh god... this is how it starts isn't it?)

but in order to get such from major manufacturers such as SBG Customs , Ronin , Hanwei and Dynasty , I probably would be looking at in excess of $500 USD..... which is WAAAY out of what I'm willing to spend.
SO... any ideas?

The tsuba
 
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First, links aren't allowed. They'll get removed as soon as a moderator sees this. Counts as dealspotting.

Second, Hanwei pieces are much less than you're saying. The Practical line is under 200, even the Practical Elite. The Practical PLUS line is under 300 (260.63 for the Practical Plus, 281.91 for the Elite). The Practical Pro line is 283-393 depending on whether you're getting the Elite or not. (Elite means higher level of polish, basically).

The Ronin Dojo Pro is only 274.99, and they have options under 200.

If you were spending over 500 on a Hanwei or Ronin or Dynasty Forge, you'd be getting something really VERY good. For instance, the Bushido can be found for under 800. My personal favorite, the Tiger Elite, usually runs a little over 1100. But those are more than you're looking for, it sounds like.

I'd start with the lower end Hanwei blades, personally. You get a lot of blade for the money with those, and you can be assured of what you're getting. I've got quite a few of those Chinese ebay katana from my own ignorant-buyer days, including some from the latter seller, and wasn't hugely impressed. They make decent wall hangers, but there were some pretty serious inclusions hiding in the steel on one, and the heat treat was pretty bad. I chipped one out badly cutting "tatami" wrapped bamboo, and later managed to cut the blade entirely in half with one of my own swords (although I grant you I use much nicer steel than they do, with a far better heat treat). The sword I made had minimal damage after breaking the Chinese katana in half. They make pretty wall-hangers, and they'll do okay at impressing people who don't know anything about swords, but they're not really worth it, in my opinion. Some of those ebay swords are okay to even great, but you never have any guarantees unless you know for sure who's doing the heat treat. It's basically like buying a lottery ticket. You MAY win the lottery and get something really worth it, but more than likely, you're just throwing your money away. I highly doubt you'll find anyone interested in a serious sword who thinks that eBay has anything worth it.

If you want my advice, stay off of ebay. I tend to think Hanwei is a good place to start, but you've got a lot of good options for under 300 dollars, and even several under 200.

Don't sweat steel type TOO much. Any of the 10 series steels, if done well, performs very well. Short of getting what I consider a premium steel, such as L6, S7, 3V (which I don't think is used in katana by anyone outside of custom makers), or some of Hanwei's powder steels, like the K120, I don't really think you'd notice any difference. The heat treat is far more important to the performance of the blade.
 
How would the Paul Chen Practical stand up to heavy cutting? I can't seem to find the Raptor in stock anywhere. Also, what do you guys think about the Raptor with the sharpened back edge?
 
It's tough, but I felt that HT on mine ended up being a little soft, so they dull much more quickly than the more expensive versions. What do you mean by heavy cutting?
 
Considering that swordmaker Paul Champain passed away his swords will be commanding a much higher price than say even a week ago. whether is's a buyers market or a sellers market prices will be going up with one less master sword maker.
 
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