How to best peen on scales, and pivot pin?

[BradleySmall]

I wracked my brain, and spent way too much time trying to accomplish these tasks that I assume there is a far easier way to do it. So here I ask:

1. Brass rod cut to a little more than necessary length necessary for liner and scale. I countersunk the liner a little (pretty thin to start with) and put the piece of rod in. Then I hit it a few times with the flat face until it stopped moving so easily. Then I commenced to hitting it all around with the round end until it spread out. Not counting the times I missed and cracked the scale material. In some cases I was able to get the liner side pretty flat, and in some other cases it was still proud. I filed off the proud part, although I think I may have not filed enough off the inside, since I have gaps between my liner and my back spring.

2. Stainless rod. Pretty much tried the same thing. But it was far less cooperative. It also needed to be thinned because the holes I had available in the spring seem to be a bit thinner than the 3/32" stock that I bought. So I put a longer than necessary piece in the drill and spun it against the the disk sander to get a smaller piece. Then I sharpened one end, to be able to "pull" the spring into line for assembly. I should have started longer because by the time I was done on one side I still had the taper in the hole. I was able to sand the pin shorter and it went red. I thought that might help me peen, but it was still very hard to do. Although, missing and hitting the stainless bolster, was much less upsetting that cracking the cedar scales.

I am assuming, that I need to do something to the "pin" before I start so that I have some amount of an upset head. Perhaps I am missing a tool or two to accomplish such things. I was concerned introducing heat anywhere near the scale material for fear of scorching it, or other such damage. I am not a black smith so anything I am doing like this is generally done cold. Am I right in thinking that you want the material to match the bolsters, seemed brass would look funny in a stainless bolster. But also, on a folder, does the pin that holds the blade need to be stainless or otherwise something harder than brass?

FWIW, I am starting with brass liners with already attached bolsters and factory created blades and back-springs. I can redrill the brass, but the back-spring is way harder than my drill bits, especially those in such a small size.

The last concern is that when closing the blade wants to catch the liner. I assume this is due to my poor peening and somehow wracking the mount. Is there any good way to correct this? Or great technique to avoid it in the future?

 

[Hengelo_77]

I don't understand your question, but stainless needs to be annealed

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Your pins are too big, and you are hitting them too hard. If you want them flush, you have to file them flush and finish them with the rest of the handle.
Cedar is way too soft for knife handles. Stainless does not peen well. You should have installed your pivot pin and rear pin, then compressed the backspring and handle in a vise to install the backspring pin.
Your rear pin is too small in diameter. It doesn't fit the hole and the spring sits too low.

 

[BradleySmall]

I don't understand your question, but stainless needs to be annealed

If I were to anneal the stainless, then what benefit does it have as a pivot for a hardened blade?

 

[BradleySmall]

Your pins are too big, and you are hitting them too hard. If you want them flush, you have to file them flush and finish them with the rest of the handle.
Cedar is way too soft for knife handles. Stainless does not peen well. You should have installed your pivot pin and rear pin, then compressed the backspring and handle in a vise to install the backspring pin.
Your rear pin is too small in diameter. It doesn't fit the hole and the spring sits too low.

First of all, thanks for responding to me. I know just jumping in without any formal training then asking what I did wrong can be annoying to some people. However, I feel it gives me a good frame of reference when asking questions.

I held a tape measure up to the holes and it looked like 3/32" to me. But when I bought 3/32 rod it was bigger than the hole. I spun it down on the drill against another sanding disk, until it fit in the hole. I did all this while the scales were in place so after they were peened I sanded the scales and the pins down at the same time. The two brass pins at the ouside I had enlarged the holes to 7/64" because they only had to deal with the scales and the brass liner. But 7/64 was large enough that the rod material was floppy in the hole. You can see at the back end, I must have left them a bit proud because that is what is gapping me on the spring end. The two at the front, I was pretty happy with, and they are flush on the backside of the liners. I was having so much frustration that I must have filed them well, and then by the time I did the other sides I neglected to do so. (Oops )

I am not sure what you mean by hitting too hard, or that they are too big. Are you saying that I peened them too big, or that I started out with material that is too big? I am guessing I got the wrong material, but I am not sure what I should have gotten. I am going to do 10 more of these, so any help on material would be greatly appreciated.

Yes, I screwed up the rear pin. I sized it down with the drill method I described earlier, then sharpened it to a point in order to set the spring. Unfortunately, I hadn't sized it down far enough before pounding it in so more of the taper was left in the hole than I intended.

This cedar is beautiful. I recognize that it might not be appropriate for scales, but this was my "proof of concept" that I could actually assemble something at all. So since I had it, I used it. I have some zebra wood, wenge, purple heart, paduk, hickory, ipe, african redwood, quina, guanacaste, garapa, and rock hard maple to use in the future. So, point taken, but this cedar is absolutely gorgeous in person. The camera does it no justice. It just begged me to be a knife scale.

Okay, so far I got:

1. Cedar not appropriate for scale material
2. Do front and back pins first, then compress and do middle spring pin.
3. Use the right size material for pins? What do I need here? I can certainly see what size drill bit fits in the spring/blade holes and go by that, other suggestions?
4. Don't peen so hard. ??? Not sure how to judge this.
5. Stainless is hard to peen... what alternative do I have? Pretty sure the back pin could be aluminum or some other material. But doesn't the one for the blade need to be comparable to hardened blade material?
Have I missed anything?

First time is always harder than the next. But I am hoping for enough information, that by the end of the next 10 I will be somewhat "good at the process". Who knows, maybe even a few of them will be sell-able enough to recoup my investment in materials.

 

[Alex Topfer]

with wood i've found you don't need to countersink, the wood will compress enough to lock it in and it helps keep the pins looking round

 

[Richard338]

Besides everything Bill mentioned you are doing great!
I'll just add one comment about how hard to peen. For this sort of work you want a pretty light hammer, and polish the peen. It takes practice, but many very light taps is what works best. Once you get the feel of it, you will be surprised how precise you can be, moving around the top of a pin.

 

[Horsewright]

On your pins the same size pin won't fit in a hole drilled by that size bit. For instance I use a F drill for a 1/4"hole and a#30 for a 1/8" hole.

 

[Pinoy Knife]

Bill gave you honest advise
#1 buy a caliper/micrometer and measure the size of the holes (Don't guess) or think you have a drill bit that will fit perfectly . Measure it
peening is something that takes practice to do.. so practice .. use a small polished hammer and give it 500 or so light taps starting on the outside edge
cedar is simply a soft wood . no matter how pretty still going to be soft wood..
i would tell you to make 20/50 peened end pins then do it again in the correct sizes for your knife project
pretty early to be thinking about "Selling to return your investment" don't ya think ??
after you have been able to put a couple together , and they work correctly you MIGHT think about selling/giving 1 away for feedback on it
you can not crawl yet and are planning to run a marathon...

 

[BradleySmall]

Besides everything Bill mentioned you are doing great!
I'll just add one comment about how hard to peen. For this sort of work you want a pretty light hammer, and polish the peen. It takes practice, but many very light taps is what works best. Once you get the feel of it, you will be surprised how precise you can be, moving around the top of a pin.

I have several different sized ball peen hammers. I don't have a really good "anvil surface" so sometimes I clamp the largest one into a vise and use its flat face as my anvil. Otherwise I have a piece or rr rail, but it really needs some cleanup. All that I did on this was mostly with the two smaller ones. They might be 8 and 12 or even lighter like 6 and 10.

 

[BradleySmall]

On your pins the same size pin won't fit in a hole drilled by that size bit. For instance I use a F drill for a 1/4"hole and a#30 for a 1/8" hole.

I get that. My problem was that I bought the little bundle of parts. It came with backspring, blade, and liners with bolsters already attached. The liners were already drilled for both scales, as well as blade and end pin. So I just looked at the holes and held up a tape and guessed 3/32. Obviously I guessed wrong. I am not sure if there are standard sizes so I just got what I could find. 5/64" might have been a better choice, but who thinks in 64ths ? Unfortunately, my 7/64th drill bit makes a hole that is larger than the rod such that it is very loose in the hole. And since the backsring and blade are hardened, trying to drill them up to larger hole, well, it was not a job for these drills. Perhaps some specifically sized cobalt or carbide bits would help, but I am expecting not to have to re-drill these holes, but rather find appropriate rod-stock to fit them. I have searched for "pins" but most of those seem to be much larger 1/8" or 1/4" or larger, and many of them are sex bolts and so forth. So I just assume I need to work with rod stock.

Right now since this one is together already there is little I can do as far as measurements. But I bought 10 more of these same parts. When they get here, I will do what I can to measure them as accurately as possible. Hopefully I can get the points of the inside verniers into the hole, or come up with a different strategy.

 

[BradleySmall]

Bill gave you honest advise
#1 buy a caliper/micrometer and measure the size of the holes (Don't guess) or think you have a drill bit that will fit perfectly . Measure it
peening is something that takes practice to do.. so practice .. use a small polished hammer and give it 500 or so light taps starting on the outside edge
cedar is simply a soft wood . no matter how pretty still going to be soft wood..
i would tell you to make 20/50 peened end pins then do it again in the correct sizes for your knife project
pretty early to be thinking about "Selling to return your investment" don't ya think ??
after you have been able to put a couple together , and they work correctly you MIGHT think about selling/giving 1 away for feedback on it
you can not crawl yet and are planning to run a marathon...

One has to have a goal. And some of those goals may be lofty. However, I don't feel like I can't learn the technique to make a usable and possibly even salable tool. Especially considering that the metal work as far as blades and springs goes, and the shape work, following the existing liner bolster shape of a proven factory product leaves me with only my peening skills and wood choices... doesn't seem insurmountable. Yes, I do get that it will require practice. Looking forward to the next one already. But I think there needs to be something more to starting these pins. Perhaps if I can start by upsetting a rivet from the rod before trying to put it in as a pin. Or something so that I am not fighting both ends at the same time while trying to get started. I guess I was hoping for something in that direction, or perhaps there are proper pins in specific sizes rather than making them from rod stock.

I will keep hunting, and trying things. Thanks for the help.

 

[FredyCro]

If you look at some of kyle royers builds on youtube he shows peening and rounding the head of the pin pretty detailed. I remeber a frame style handle in mammoth that he did, should be one of the last videos in that series.

Another cool trick I saw somewhere is to have small holes in your makeshift anvil corresponding to your pin size that help in rounding, enlargin the pin head. My couple of tries were much better after polishing the hammer and pin head before starting.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Sorry if you found my reply offensive. It was not meant as such.
Pivot pins can be nickel silver, brass or simple steel-like nails. They don't have to be very hard.
When sizing a pin, chuck it and use a file to reduce the diameter. This will keep the diameter more uniform.
The work you are doing requires a very small hammer-around 2 oz. head.
It looks like your scale pin stock is very large. Certainly the heads you peened are very large. The cedar is pretty, but it's too soft. In general- any wood is too soft for small slip-joint pins. It's difficult to tighten the joints without breaking the wood, and if it doesn't break the pin head just sinks into the wood. It can be done, but wood isn't recommended to learn on. The more durable the material, the easier it is to work with.
In most circumstances, it's appropriate to insert the pin and then peen the heads.

 

[BradleySmall]

If you look at some of kyle royers builds on youtube he shows peening and rounding the head of the pin pretty detailed. I remeber a frame style handle in mammoth that he did, should be one of the last videos in that series.

Another cool trick I saw somewhere is to have small holes in your makeshift anvil corresponding to your pin size that help in rounding, enlargin the pin head. My couple of tries were much better after polishing the hammer and pin head before starting.

I did polish all my hammers with 0000 steel wool. I will look for those videos.

 

[BradleySmall]

Sorry if you found my reply offensive. It was not meant as such.
Pivot pins can be nickel silver, brass or simple steel-like nails. They don't have to be very hard.
When sizing a pin, chuck it and use a file to reduce the diameter. This will keep the diameter more uniform.
The work you are doing requires a very small hammer-around 2 oz. head.
It looks like your scale pin stock is very large. Certainly the heads you peened are very large. The cedar is pretty, but it's too soft. In general- any wood is too soft for small slip-joint pins. It's difficult to tighten the joints without breaking the wood, and if it doesn't break the pin head just sinks into the wood. It can be done, but wood isn't recommended to learn on. The more durable the material, the easier it is to work with.
In most circumstances, it's appropriate to insert the pin and then peen the heads.

No offence taken. The hammers I have at my disposal, and I just put them on the scale, are 3.5 oz, 6 oz and one kilo I used the face of the big one for my anvil because it had a nice smooth surface, as opposed to my piece of rr track that is rough and crappy. I was getting good movement on the brass with the smaller one but definitely needed the medium one to do anything to the stainless.

The stock I got was 3/32. I bought some brass and music wire today in 1/16" (I think music wire is like 1095 or similar. Doubt it is stainless) if this doesn't fit when my stuff gets here I will look for 5/64" or something.

Thanks again, I am not that easily offended.

 

[fitzo]

One can take a bolt and drill a small depression in the end to use as an anvil for setting pins. Mount the bolt vertically in a vise and one can set the end of the pin in the depression and peen the other end. Takes a little getting used to but focuses the force on the pin.

 

[BradleySmall]

One can take a bolt and drill a small depression in the end to use as an anvil for setting pins. Mount the bolt vertically in a vise and one can set the end of the pin in the depression and peen the other end. Takes a little getting used to but focuses the force on the pin.

The difficulty of posting pictures makes for some interesting word play. When you say drill a small depression in the "end" do you mean the head, or the part that you thread into a nut? How much of a small depression? Like, if I were to be working with a piece or 3/32 would I want a hole perhaps 3/16 wide and 3/32 deep?

 

[fitzo]

The difficulty of posting pictures makes for some interesting word play. When you say drill a small depression in the "end" do you mean the head, or the part that you thread into a nut? How much of a small depression? Like, if I were to be working with a piece or 3/32 would I want a hole perhaps 3/16 wide and 3/32 deep?

Ya know, I actually thought about that after the post. Sorry about that.

I have several of these little things in a couple sizes. The depressions are drilled into the small end of the bolt and the head is grasped in the vise or under. One could use rod readily enough but the idea was passed on as bolts and that’s what I ran with. I’m pretty sure I got the idea from one of the books 40 years ago.
The hole itself is slightly larger than the pin size and perhaps an 1/8” deep. You don’t want things getting stuck, just a firm spot to set it on and not be pounding bolster into an anvil.
As I said earlier, this is sort of an acquired sklll to hold the knife, hold the pin in the depression, and then tap gently. Just keep tapping around the periphery with the pein. Don’t be a gorilla.

Hope that helps.

As an aside to any self-righteous gorilla: if there’s gonna be one of you pop up and ride my arse with some misplaced social media cancel culture political correctness, well,
..|o

 

[Bill DeShivs]

No offence taken. The hammers I have at my disposal, and I just put them on the scale, are 3.5 oz, 6 oz and one kilo I used the face of the big one for my anvil because it had a nice smooth surface, as opposed to my piece of rr track that is rough and crappy. I was getting good movement on the brass with the smaller one but definitely needed the medium one to do anything to the stainless.

The stock I got was 3/32. I bought some brass and music wire today in 1/16" (I think music wire is like 1095 or similar. Doubt it is stainless) if this doesn't fit when my stuff gets here I will look for 5/64" or something.

Thanks again, I am not that easily offended.

You don't want to try music wire for pins. Use common nails turned to exact size.