How to forge or weld this Deer Horn Knives?

[ikuyadas]

Hi all, This is a small weapon of traditional chinese arts Baguazhang, invented by Dong Haichuan in 19th century. I've been curious how it works and what kind of shape is my favorite, but didn't consider HOW IT WAS MADE until now. It looks like "two crescent welded", but I'm worried about that hard impact would crash its welded joints, and also riveting is not strong enough to resist. Now we can see stock and removal but it was invented in 19th century, and integral forging would be nearly impossible at that time IMHO. I don't know anything about blacksmithing, of course nothing about old time or Chinese style of it, so I want to ask traditional WIP about it or how you would make it without current tools. Thank you.

Deer Horn Knives aka 子母鴛鴦鉞

 

[SteelSlaver]

The two pieces could have been forge welded together, well done forge welds would be very solid. Damascus and folded steels are forge welded as where lots of other implements. OR one piece could have been partially split and then forged into the 2 curves but that would be more difficult.

 

[Rick Marchand]

If I was making many of these for a school, I would forge weld. If it was only one or two for my own use or for any real combat(given the appropriate time period) I would make them out of one piece. I practiced Baghua for a few years here in Canada. Walking the circles always stuck with me and was very useful later on when I fought Sabaki and Shuai Jiao.

 

[ikuyadas]

Thank you for your inputs. Friend of my family have ever made it from water-jetted 420A steel and gave one of them to me, but it was not how inventor did in 19th century. I was so fool that it was just started to wrap two improvised materials but I couldn't think it would resist against hard impacts, so I was not sure that it was realized to be as functional stuff.


These are given 420A and my LOL cardboards, 420A model is 3mm thick and about 400 grams

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

In that time period, the steel material was a great cost....labor was virtually free.
Forge welding was the simplest and most economic method as far as using the least steel.
The other choice would be to hammer the metal into a sheet, and do the cuts with saws and chisels. This was easier, and perhaps faster, but used more steel.

 

[stevomiller]

Unless the blades were composite high carbon edge/low carbon body, I don't agree that it would use more material than welding. The initial stock would be larger, but the total mass the same. Three series of chisel cuts, spread the center, spread the tips, forge the bevels. 6 of one, half dozen of another ;~)' The main concern for me would be whether you want/need a slight offset between the two crescents.

 

[bikermikearchery]

If I were making this piece I would hot cut slots in a bar. (OK I'd bandsaw the slots in the end and chisle the center) then spreading out the center and the ears would be short work.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Stevo and B-mike... that would be my plan, too:thumbup:

 

[ikuyadas]

Unless the blades were composite high carbon edge/low carbon body, I don't agree that it would use more material than welding. The initial stock would be larger, but the total mass the same. Three series of chisel cuts, spread the center, spread the tips, forge the bevels. 6 of one, half dozen of another ;~)'

Is this what you guys mean? What'a imagination....

Another question, I'm not sure "forge the bevels. 6 of one". I thought it is to take edges at "horn" parts of it, then don't you take edge at knuckle guard of it?

My problem is I have never felt to see "real steel made EDGED WEAPON" of it from past pics searches. Now we can get only duralumin souvenirs of it generally, Cultural Revolution is also known as genocide of traditional martial artists, quality of blacksmithing was losing in later Qing Dynasty, so I have no historical references how it was made at that time.

Sorry for my English skill and poor knowledge. Thank you again for your supports.

 

[Rick Marchand]

The ones we had at our school looked like these... with the elongated horn. They were sharpened all the way around except for the grip and inside the nuckle guard.

We also used hook swords...

The real challenge would be making sheaths!


How has the "Moro" been treating you, buddy? Have you done any more landscaping in your yard with it? Ha!

 

[ikuyadas]

The ones we had at our school looked like these... with the elongated horn. They were sharpened all the way around except for the grip and inside the nuckle guard.

Pretty standard, no non-sence stuff.... it will make easier to understand various movements.
My past mentor had to make it from layered fibergrass to demonstrate in Japan.

The real challenge would be making sheaths!

I could find only this thread from internet. I heard it was back-side sheathed and also thrown to opponents....?

We also used hook swords...

I liked lightweight short staff.... anyway it is here at 3:09, that looks like genuine.
Recently I am reading Japanese blog summaries of "Iron and Steel Swords of China", author says there were folded steel, differentially tempering, clay pattern and damascus....
They could make trident spears, hook swords exist in museum, so why not it is?



(PS: Moro is working. Almost done in my yard with saw, making walking sticks, big fish cooking, easy to sharpen and no trouble at all.)