How to: Forge welding?

Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
475
How do you forge weld? I was messing around with some rebar I had laying around, and couldn't get the two pieces to do anything more than flatten each other out real thin. I think I had them at a "bright orange" heat.

I have a propane forge (venturi, not blown), if that makes any difference. I think I had read somewhere about how the flame can be oxidizing, or not, depending on how you have it set.. or something. Could someone help me out, there?
 
Increase the heat and use flux. The way I learned to weld was to wait for the fire to sing to you, you should see some sparks but not much. I don't know about propane forges but charcoal forges can be carbonizing or oxidizing depending on the position of the steel, which make them great for making your own steel :D. I use borax for flux, just watch out for the flux when you strike the steel; its pretty warm to say the least. For temperature I go for bright yellow with a few sparks coming off. Keep the pieces clean when you layer them to weld, a grill wire brush works well for this.

-Dan
 
im interested in this too, I want to do this with ball bearings once i get a forge going, maybe without the extra 1010 and 52100.

Is the borax flux found as household cleaner? or is that different?

Can i squeeze it together in a vise? I don't want it slipping of the anvil.
 
I use borax for flux, just watch out for the flux when you strike the steel; its pretty warm to say the least.

How, exactly, does one watch out for the redhot, flying flux?

Just curious...............

After seeing the flux fly at Ashokan I understand the leather aprons these guys wear

Syn
 
How, exactly, does one watch out for the redhot, flying flux?
Syn

By wearing a leather apron, long sleeve cotton shirt, leather gloves and goggles or a welding mask; perhaps I worded by original statement wrong.:o

Blue Dragon you should be able to find flux (borox) with the laundry detergent in the store.

Keath you could use a vice but I don't suggest it. You could ask someone to assist you and use a sledge hammer; this would still involve your anvil though.
 
ok, but what i meant was use the vise to get the ring into an oval, then forge weld it together with a hammer.
 
a hydraulic press perhaps,but short of that, a hammer works just as well. im so not an expert but i dont believe youd be able to get a solid weld fast enough with a vise.
 
There are a few things that you need to be concerned about when forge welding. They are:

- Keep it clean
- Use the right amount of flux (at the right time!)
- Reducing atmosphere
- Know when to weld
- Weld it, don't smash it

I'll address each one in turn.

Keep it clean:

Start with clean steal. The surfaces mst be free of any forge scale. Take an angle grinder and clean off ALL scale from the pieces to be welded.

Use the right amount of flux:

What flux will do for you is to keep oxygen out of your weld. Don't count on flux to "clean out" your weld. Keeping things clean is YOUR job. What you want to do is get the steel to a light red in color. This is hot enpough to melt the flux, but not so hot that you will be forming scale. Then you want to apply enough flux (20 mule team borax...from the laundry aisle) to create a light shiny coating. It will looks like wet glass. Too much flux will do two bad things. First, it can create inclusions in your weld. Second, it can splatter all over and burn the heck out of you and anything around you.

Reducing atmosphere:

You want a reducing atmosphere in your forge. This means that you have more fuel than oxygen in the forge. This will reduce the chances of your billet scaling and ruining your welds.

In a coal forge, you want to be burning only coke (no green coal) and you want to make sure that you have coke around all sides of your billet and that the fire is burning hot and clean. Forge welding in a coal forge can be quite a challenge as it can be very difficult to heat the entire billet evenly and at the same time it's very easy to burn steel in a coal forge. My suggestion if you're welding in a coal forge is to concentrate on a 2-3" section of your billet at a time. Heat, weld, wire brush and reflux immediately after welding, then concentrate on the next section.

In a gas forge (the way do my work) you can tune the atmosphere by watching the flame exiting the forge door. No flame exiting the forge is an oxidising atmosphere (all the fuel is being burnt inside the forge...there's more O2 left over), a little flame (1-3") coming out of the forge is a neutral atmosphere, and a 3-6" ORANGE flame exiting the forge door is a reducing atmosphere (some fuel still unburnt until it exits the forge and finds more oxygen to burn). If you've got BLUE flame exiting the forge, make sure you've got good ventilation as you're generating a lot of carbon monoxide.

Know when to weld:

Once your billet is fluxed, start to slowly bring it to a welding temperature. Slowly heating is more important in a coal forge than a gas forge. In a coal forge it's VERY easy to make extremely high temperatures in a localized area and burn your steel. A low to medium air blast to bring the billet to a high orange heat slowly will serve you best. A gas forge is a bit easier. Just get it to a high orange/low yellow heat and you'll be fine. There are a few way to know when it's the right time to weld. The first is by watching your flux and color. This will end up being probably all you use once you're used to welding. Watch for the flux to be "boiling" on the surface of the billet. The other thing you're looking for is a bright orange to yellow color. I've heard it likened to looking for boiling flux on a stick of butter. That's a prety accurate description.


Weld it, don't smash it:

When you're to this point you're ready to weld. It's very important to know exactly when you're going to do when you pull the billet from the forge. While you wait for the billet to come up to heat, go over the movements. Make sure you know where your hammer is. Make sure there's nothing to trip over, etc, etc. When your billet is up to heat, pull it from the forge and quickly make your way to the anvil. Make sure you have your hammer in hand and strike the billet firmly, but not very hard. Start at one end and work your way to the other end in even, deliberate strokes. You want to set a weld at this point, that's it. You can draw the billet out later. If you hit the billet too hard you can make layers slip sideways which is not what you want. I'm not sure how to describe it, but you can hear and feel when a weld sets right. What you're listening for is a sort of "thud". After you've set a few welds, you'll know what I mean.

That's it! Draw your billet out, grind your new welding surfaces clean, and repeat.

-d
 
Decker, were you the one that gave me exactlythat advice at Ashokan?
Damn solid advice, every weld I have tried since I was told not to hit it too hard has stuck! Thanks!
Everything he said. I use porpane with forced air, I have started building my own blower driven propane forges, and am having fun doing damascus! I could not get my old 2 burner (NC Whisper Momma) atmospheric propane forge up to a good welding temp, so about a month and a half ago I started building blower driven propane forges, and my welds are working great. I use 20 Mule Team borax for flux for damascus for other stuff I sometimes use Canal Forge's Black Magic flux, (sticks stuff at a real low heat) but I do not trust it for damascus. YMMV

-Page
 
A lot of Rebar sux for forge welding; actually a lot of rebar sux for most anything but burying in concrete. Mild steel is more difficult to weld to itself than high carbon (takes higher temp). If you do everything deker has mentioned and still have problems, try it with two small pieces of plain high carbon steel.
 
I thought I had heard mild steel was easier, hence the rebar... I'm practicing for a project this fall/winter, in which I'll need to do a little bit of forge welding on (A bardiche of 1050 steel)

I agree, rebar is useless stuff for anything blade-like. (Except I heard there was some higher carbon rebar floating around somewhere?)
 
You've got to watch out, because when your steel starts sparking it's too hot, you are losing carbon, the sparks are the carbon burning out of your steel.

Good luck, and happy hammering :D
 
Decker, were you the one that gave me exactlythat advice at Ashokan?
Damn solid advice, every weld I have tried since I was told not to hit it too hard has stuck! Thanks!

Yup, that was me. Glad to hear it's working out! Now, just get yourself a power hammer before you destroy that right arm ;)

-d
 
The way he swings that hammer Its not just his right arm I'm worried about.
I'm thinking about doing an unofficial Bronze blade/sword making demo next year on saturday night.
Del
 
a hydraulic press perhaps,but short of that, a hammer works just as well. im so not an expert but i dont believe youd be able to get a solid weld fast enough with a vise.

Many of the multi bar blades you see these days are put together, using a vise to apply the pressure. If you are working with clean aligned surfaces, it takes little pressure to weld.
I point this out, so when you get ready to weld up that big mutibar damascus blade, you will have another option.


Regards, FRed
 
How do you forge weld? I was messing around with some rebar I had laying around, and couldn't get the two pieces to do anything more than flatten each other out real thin. I think I had them at a "bright orange" heat.

I have a propane forge (venturi, not blown), if that makes any difference. I think I had read somewhere about how the flame can be oxidizing, or not, depending on how you have it set.. or something. Could someone help me out, there?

I could describe you how the steel should look like for forge-welding in a dozen pages, and still you wouldn't know it when you're doing it.
Best advice I can give you is: find somebody willing to teach you. Seeing it done and doing it once is worth more than reading a dozen books.
I' ve read more than a dozen books and descriptions and advice from very kind smiths, and still couldn't properly do it. Seen it done once, and next thing I forged a damascus billet and double bar damascus knife as first project.
;)
For what's worth, flux should bubble, steel should look like a piece of butter in an oven when it just starts to melt. Color should be "hard to look at without dydimium glasses".
Actually, don't stare for long in the forge while welding without dydimium glasses, or you'll ruin your eyesight! :eek:
 
Delbert, if you think one-handing a 6 pound hammer is bad you should see how I bowl!
Seriously, I will be looking for some way of affording a power hammer or building a press in the next year.
Bronze sword? I have been contemplating casting one since I saw the magnificent one the lady had 2 years ago.

I'm currently working on 2 more bars of Damascus, I just built a horizontal gas forge for welding, it uses 2 inch pipe for the burner assembly, and is working very well with a smaller blower.
 
A lot of Rebar sux for forge welding; actually a lot of rebar sux for most anything but burying in concrete. Mild steel is more difficult to weld to itself than high carbon (takes higher temp). If you do everything deker has mentioned and still have problems, try it with two small pieces of plain high carbon steel.

Most rebar is done with recycled steel.
Where does recycled steel come from? Mostly, crushed cars.
Also various appliances.
This means it will have copper in it.
And copper steel WON'T weld, no matter what.

As for hitting, hit it with the force you'd use to hit a medium nail to hold a picture frame on a wall.
No more. Firm, without hesitation.
For coal forge, I've forged a 6" bar of damascus, but used refractory brick to build a "cave" in which burned the coal.
Have at least 5" or more of coal beneath your steel, to avoid oxidizing atmosphere.
You can spot an oxidizing atmosphere as it will burn away your flux and, ultimately, your steel.:rolleyes:
 
Back
Top