How to get started?

D

dalr753

Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
77
I was thinking about trying to get started in making knives but im not sure what the absolute minimal tools that I need are. would just a kiln and grinder work? also the cheapest kiln I can find is the sugar creek mini($388), is there any cheaper or a place to find them used
 
Welcome to the forum. A good place to start would be to read all the "Stickies" at the top of this forum. There is lots of great info. There are several places like Texas Knifemakers Supply and Peters Heat Treat that can heat treat your knives if you don't want to make the investment of a kiln. I've stared out by getting some knife blanks and putting handles on them. All I invested in are some files, sand paper, epoxy and time. Stick around and read some of the post here and you will find many answers to your questions.
 
Alot of new knife makers ask the same question, I suggest you ready the stickies, they have alot of information. It is helpful to complete your profile, you may a generous maker nearby!!. Like said before it starts with a hacksaw, drill, file and sandpaper and does not seem to ever end. What tools do you have now? What knife of knife do you want to make? which is more important time or $$?

Good luck
 
I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions on how to make a knife. I'm sure it will help you too. How to Instructions for making a Knife.

The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V22

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin. A paring knife slices, an axe doesn't.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then make it in wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
Play with that and see if it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better for some steels.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.


Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with inlays, machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
Use a piece of known steel, not a file. I just post this as an example of doing it by hand with few tools.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files and other unknown junkyard steels.
For all the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench.
Forget used motor oil, it's toxic and doesn't work that well.

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;

Even grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel.

Brine and water are almost free, and technically correct for W1 and "water hardening" steels but a fast oil like Parks 50 and Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades.
If you use water or brine, expect to have a cracked or broken blade.
Search the work "tink" for more info


Glue – Epoxy

Use a Fresh package of slow setting, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and well as seal out moisture.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive, blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean & no oil including fingerprints. Soap, Acetone & Alcohol, Blasting.
Clamp with moderate pressure= avoid a “glue starved joint” when all the adhesive is squeezed out.
These are well proven.
Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex
JB Weld


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Files can be made from unhardenable steel, or steel similar to 1095 that needs a difficult HT
Just use 1084 instead of a file.

Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
Don't believe me? google "Ed Caffrey lung cancer" and see what he has to say about it.

The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.
There are also prefilters that snap over the main filter for longer life.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here

This is a special Google page that searches BF only & works better than the forum search.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

V22 Dec 1, 2011.

Countavatar.jpg
 
I haven't tried shaping a knife from a file, but it sounds like it isn't that bad from people on this forum. There are other costs usually to heat treat besides the kiln - 220v outlets, tongs, stand inside kiln, plates, oil, foil, dewer, liquid nitrogen and 5 things I and not thinking about. You might already know your heat treatment depends on the type of steel you choose. Anyway, as suggested above, just send it out or find a knifemaker in your area that will help.

If you have the budget get a belt or 9" disc grinder. What steel do you want to use? I wanted some pretty good tools and I guess I spent about $4500 on a KMG grinder, drill press, metal bandsaw, belts, steel, respirator, wood, pins, micarta, drill bits all before I made my first knife. I didn't worry about it because I got good deals and knew if I didn't like it I would not lose much reselling. Anyway, good luck.
David
 
First:
Welcome to the Bladeforums.
Second:
Thank you for filling out your profile with the basic info, including your age. It will help us help you a lot.
I was up in the Coeur d'Alene Mountains about 45 years ago - nice country.

In the stickies is a title "How to Instructions for Making a Knife"
It normally is applied to a smaller first knife, but there is no reason that it won't work for a 9" bowie. Total cost should be well below $100 including the knife materials. It could be as low as $50, if you have some files and clamps already.

Go slow, plan ahead, take breaks, enjoy yourself - Ask questions.

If the steel is a problem for you to get, there are a lot of folks on this forum ( myself included) that will gladly send you a piece of 1084 steel and maybe a handle block to get you started right.

The best way to get started and avoid making many first timer mistakes is to make a thread about the knife build project. Start with the drawings, materials you will use, and equipment you have available. From there you can progress through the project with several hundred makers helping you along. Don't try and rush into a step. Post your plans and thoughts, and wait for the responses.That way you will have some tips to help you through the process BEFORE you do the step. All too often someone posts that XYZ isn't working right, only to find that they should have done TUV first.
 
Thank you very much! Im probably just going to make the cheapskate knife as I believe I can get all the stuff.

Ps. whats a handle bloc?
 
A handle block is a piece of wood (or other material) suitable for use as a handle. I use stabilized wood. Others use micarta or ivory or any number of other materials.
 
dalr753 said:
Thank you very much! Im probably just going to make the cheapskate knife as I believe I can get all the stuff.
Click to expand...

I think that is a real good decision. I know you want to make a 9" bowie, but I would like to suggest you consider starting with something 1/3 that size. Unless you have metal work experience your first knife will likely be "less than perfect". But you are going to learn soooo much making it. Then, with that wealth of experience under your belt, you can take on the bowie and you will end up with a much better knife than making it first.

Do you have an drawing of the bowie you want to make that you can share with us?

- Paul Meske
 
Wealth of info here. Basic suggestion is just make a knife, any knife. Pick a fairly simple design because just doing that is going to be difficult enough. But when you make it, and this was told to me when I did my first one and I'll never forget it (thanks Stacy) - Make it to the best of your ability. Don't try to finish it for the sake of getting it done. Chances are no matter how many you make you will almost always look at it and see a flaw or something you could have done better. That's fine you can always look to make that improvement next time because every time will be a learning experience, something you will take with you on your next build. But every stage you are at in making your knife see it through to the end where you can say "I've done all I can here" before moving on to the next step. Don't half-ass the job just to get it done.

Also if you're going to do stock removal you don't have to worry about a kiln and all that good stuff, you can send it out to be heat treated for about $20 and it'll be done right. Good luck.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
No I dont have any drawing yet ( plus I dont how to put it online, me no good with tech). But could you tell me what 1084 to get from that njbaron. theres a couple of types and im not sure whats the difference. also is the heat treat different for that than the 5160 in the cheapskate knife?
 
If you're going to send it out for heat treatment find out what type of steel they will work with. Many do not do oil quenching, or are quite expensive for a single blade.

- Paul Meske
 
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