how to make a sandwich knife?

Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
10
My uncle had a French knife that had a thin sheet of very hard steel in the middle, and a milder steel on the outside. So when you sharpen it, you sand down the outer "milder" steel to reveal the perfectly sharp inner steel.
I am preparing to make my first blade, and would like to do this. I was told I can use a bandsaw for the inner steel, and as this is a budget build, I sil use car leaf springs for the outer steel. But I am not sure about how the heat treatment during welding will affect both of the steels..

I would like to hear expert opinions on this. Thanks!
 
That's a HUGE leap from no prior knives to that laminated one. I think you should reconsider unless you have a forge nd know how to use it . Just a word to let you know what a huge step youi want to take .I DO wish you well but I don't think it will happen. Did you read all the "stickys" at the top of the page? Frank
 
I'm no "expert" but I know some stuff & I will give you my opinion.

This is referred to in Japanese as san mai
or laminated steel
Everything you can learn about Damascus steel applies to laminated steel too, the layer count is just different.

If you haven't done that before, you don't have the equipment or knowledge & wont get it right the first time.

If you haven't made a knife before, you may not get it right the first time either.

There is so much knowledge and skill gap between where you are now and where you want to be.
But
We will help you as much as possible to get there.


Instead of making the laminated billet yourself, it is possible you could buy it.

But

It will be very expensive & possibly scrap


I recommend making one in a good mono steel first.




I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions. I'm sure it will help you too.

The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V18

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin. A paring knife slices, an axe splits.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then make it in wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
Play with that and see if it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.

Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.

Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, A2,
Or air quenched CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

If you want to heat treat yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential .

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788837
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=726309



Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here


V18 Edited links August 25, 2011.
 
Last edited:
As far as a clarification goes.... To make the San Mai, you FORGE weld three pieces of steel... A very common way is with a steel for the inner core like 1095, 1084 etc. Or, even the leaf spring steel you are thinking of as mild outer steel is possibly 5160 a very good, and commonly used knife steel.....it's "springy" due to it's hardening and tempering treatment....the outer core is often wrought iron... some use a stainless steel carbon steel "sandwich" to make their San Mai

If you want to do a San Mai knife, I say buy a billet of steel from Mike Turner....

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...t-Iron-San-Mai-with-1080-Core-Billet-For-Sale

I've handled his knives made with it and it's lovely...
 
Thanks guys! This will be very helpfull!
Just to clarify things I did not intend to make a laminated blade right at the start. I just wanted some info. I posted this on Metalmeet and someone reffered me here. I am just in the process of learning, getting prepared, setting up my forge and other tools.

I live in Serbia and we do not have any knifemakers here. The blacksmith's of old are pretty much extinct. The economy is a mess so no one has time to have a hobby when you are struggling to get by, and there is not much work for a blacksmith. So getting the material would be hard. I guess the cost of shiping would be greater then the cost of the material. And I am on a tight budget so I think I'll stick to car leaf springs for the time being :)
 
You can make a first knife like that if you buy layered steel.
This is a German webshop that offers it. They are good people :)

http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/719616/Medial-Layer-Blue-Paper-Steel-Ao-Gami.htm
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/719615/Japanese-Triple-Layer-Steel.htm

719615_01_P_WE_8.jpg
 
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