How to progress on higher grits when you can no longer feel a burr--need advice

[Bladenoobie1]

Hi,

I'm constantly trying to improve my freehand skills to get more consistent bevels, and crisper edges. With my shapton glass waterstones, I can feel for a burr on my 500 and 1k stone and I get decent edges coming off of them. My question is what do you do when you get to the 4000 stone when I can't feel a burr? I understand from there, its all about refinement. What I usually do is 30 strokes on one side and do the reverse for the flip side, and progressively reduce the strokes until I'm alternating 1 stroke per side. I know there is a better approach and my results are rather sub-par in doing my method.

When I do this, the edge I get off the 4000 grit glass stone, though more polished is often not as sharp as the edge I get off the 500 grit stone. My finished edge off a 500 grit stone stropped on a coarse black compound can push cut phone book paper. Finishing off the 4k stone, my edge is often not even shaving and will need stropping to give it some bite again.

What I want to do is to get a relatively sharp crisp edge off the 4k glass stone so I can further refine it with stropping. As opposed to getting a duller edge off the 4k stone and attempting to finish it with a strop.

That aside, can anyone offer advice or techniques of how to transition from the 1k stone (where I can feel a burr) to the 4k stone and up (where I can't feel a burr) ? I really just want to improve my technique. knifenut1013 I'm calling for you!!!!!!!!!

- BN

 

[Magnaminous_G]

You know what you have to do, knifenut. We haven't gotten a new vid in a while!

OP, I'll chime in if you don't mind: It sounds like you are hitting your apex and deburring properly on your 500 and 1k stones but something is going wrong at the higher grits. Are you reducing pressure gradually until you are just "kissing" the stone? Finishing with edge trailing strokes at feather light pressure?

On my 6k stone, I also have difficulty feeling for any remaining artifacts with my fingertip pads. Getting a good loupe (Peak 22X) and viewing the edge under strong light really helps me to see what was going on at the apex. For a long time, I was actually not scratching all the way to the apex with my finishing stones. Hence the bevel itself was polished and pretty, but the edge wasn't where it was supposed to be.

I can now finish a knife properly without the loupe, but it helped a lot in initially understanding. Fully establishing the finishing stone's scratch pattern, followed by gradual lightening of pressure, followed by edge trailing until just "kissing" the stone is the key for me, but it's interesting to hear that you are somehow actually dulling the edge with your finishing stone. I have to admit, I don't understand how that is happening if your angles and technique are working on the 500 and 1k stones. Are you doing something differently with the 4k stone?

Do you have a YouTube account? Can you post a vid of your sharpening process?

 

[Jason B.]

In my last video about using the Norton stone I talk about how I feel for a burr. Basically I use a stropping motion on my thumb nail to feel for very small burrs, even those at 10k and higher can be felt this way. Typically a burr will scrape the thumb nail or simply feel rough, a burr free edge will feel smooth as glass.

 

[Nullity]

In my last video about using the Norton stone I talk about how I feel for a burr. Basically I use a stropping motion on my thumb nail to feel for very small burrs, even those at 10k and higher can be felt this way. Typically a burr will scrape the thumb nail or simply feel rough, a burr free edge will feel smooth as glass.

I tried this method after I saw your videos. (Thanks!) I could not feel any difference but I did notice that if I rubbed my nail on the edge a few times, if there was a burr, a small amount of my fingernail would be visibly building up at the edge. So, my nail was obviously catching but I was not able to notice by feel.

 

[Bladenoobie1]

Thanks for the replies guys. I did not see your last video knifenut1013, so I was unaware of the thumb nail scraping method.

Going back to Magnaminous_G, I think its likely that I'm not hitting the very edge at the 4000 grit stone. Or I'm at least doing something different that I preventing me from getting a crisp edge. loupe sounds like a good idea and I probably should invest in one in the near future. Can you PM me any good lopes that are sub $25? Or does no such thing exist?

As for my technique I know when I first started freehanding I put wayyy to much pressure on my 4k stone. I'm beginning to use lighter pressure now, but I'm still having a little difficulty. In the lower grits I always rely on the burr as an indicator of hitting the very edge, so at the higher grits I get "lost."

I feel in the forward stroke I am hitting the very edge also being that I can visually check. Its very likely that on my return stroke, I'm not hitting the very edge since I tend to hold the knife at a slightly lower angle. One other issue I have trouble with is edge trailing strokes. When I get to that final finishing step, often I end up dulling my knife. How do you do consistent trailing strokes without going to steep or shallow in your angle?

Anyhow I'll find some old kitchen knives or some cheap older folders to practice on and try that thumb nail technique knifenut1013 brought up. My only decent folder I really have is a starbenza. It has an acceptable (though a bit obtuse) shaving edge for my purposes, so I don't feel like practicing and experimenting on a knife of that cost anymore

 

[Bladenoobie1]

I tried this method after I saw your videos. (Thanks!) I could not feel any difference but I did notice that if I rubbed my nail on the edge a few times, if there was a burr, a small amount of my fingernail would be visibly building up at the edge. So, my nail was obviously catching but I was not able to notice by feel.

If I rub my fingernail on a clean deburred edge--though smooth, my nail will still build up on the edge a bit because the apex will ever so slightly scrape my nail. So I'm not sure looking for nail shavings/build-up is a good indicator of a burr. Anyhow I have yet to test out this fingernail method and I will do so tomorrow.

 

[Nullity]

If I rub my fingernail on a clean deburred edge--though smooth, my nail will still build up on the edge a bit because the apex will ever so slightly scrape my nail. So I'm not sure looking for nail shavings/build-up is a good indicator of a burr. Anyhow I have yet to test out this fingernail method and I will do so tomorrow.

Whatever works the the particular individual, I suppose. Keep your fingernail parallel with the blade, otherwise yeah, it will scrape regardless of burr.
While I was building a burr over the entire edge, my loupe and bright light test showed a small area with no burr. When I tried the nail grabbing method, it did not work for me but there was build-up everywhere except where I had earlier observed to be without a burr. I have also heard of trying to snag cotton or wet paper-towel as a method for determining if there is a burr.

I use as many methods as I can because I still have trouble finding the burr. Hopefully I will find a surefire method to check for a burr. I guess we all simply need a quality USB microscope.

 

[hank_rearden]

mine is simply being able to split hair even at the intermediate level (fine - 10-50 microns?) only when it can do that tells me there're no burrs and i can finish to micron-level or with treated and plain leather,

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Can you PM me any good lopes that are sub $25? Or does no such thing exist

I recommend the Peak 22. It is more than $25 (more like $60 or so), but buy once, cry once. It is totally worth it, and you'll never need another one.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Hi,

I'm constantly trying to improve my freehand skills to get more consistent bevels, and crisper edges. With my shapton glass waterstones, I can feel for a burr on my 500 and 1k stone and I get decent edges coming off of them. My question is what do you do when you get to the 4000 stone when I can't feel a burr? I understand from there, its all about refinement. What I usually do is 30 strokes on one side and do the reverse for the flip side, and progressively reduce the strokes until I'm alternating 1 stroke per side. I know there is a better approach and my results are rather sub-par in doing my method.

When I do this, the edge I get off the 4000 grit glass stone, though more polished is often not as sharp as the edge I get off the 500 grit stone. My finished edge off a 500 grit stone stropped on a coarse black compound can push cut phone book paper. Finishing off the 4k stone, my edge is often not even shaving and will need stropping to give it some bite again.

What I want to do is to get a relatively sharp crisp edge off the 4k glass stone so I can further refine it with stropping. As opposed to getting a duller edge off the 4k stone and attempting to finish it with a strop.

That aside, can anyone offer advice or techniques of how to transition from the 1k stone (where I can feel a burr) to the 4k stone and up (where I can't feel a burr) ? I really just want to improve my technique. knifenut1013 I'm calling for you!!!!!!!!!

- BN

As you climb to higher grit values, the amount of feedback you feel is going to diminish. Very important you recognize the difference and not change the angle - elevate the spine. This will increase the amount of 'feel' on the edge but round it over as well. Keep it at the original working angle. Stop and observe often as you go. When you drop back down to the 1k from the 4k, does the scratch pattern develop evenly, or do you have to flatten more at the shoulder to reach a new apex? This would show how convexed the edge is becoming on the 4k - also a good way to tell how rounded your edges are becoming after you strop. Ideally there should be very very little stone work needed to grind a fresh cutting plane. As already mentioned, reduce pressure to a very light touch.

Forget about counting strokes/side - work and observe, repeat as needed, work where its needed.



My #1 burr detection method is to get underneath some strong lighting, hold the blade edge down and slowly tilt it back and forth so the light plays straight down across the cutting edge. Any burrs present will appear as a halo or brighter light just off the cutting edge. Really small ones will show as a line of brighter light that does not throw light back the same as the bevel above it. To get maniacal about it, lightly backdrag the edge at a step angle across the corner of some wood and check again - small wire edges can be found in this manner as well as regular burrs - if its clean after this test, its clean!

Once you get a feel for this method, you'll be able to find all manner of defects - anything that's not right will show as a change in the way light reflects off the cutting plane. Add a loupe to this process and there is not a single burr or incomplete over-grind that will elude you. If you use microbevels, they will show up plainly as well.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

I found the information rich! Thank you all for this (not found in any of other threads, at least not that I remembered)
:thumbup:

 

[Ben Dover]

At the higher grit levels, when I come off of a stone, I lightly slice into the end of a soft pine board to remove micro burrs. Then 3 or 4 light laps on a hanging strop. Then I test by push cutting phone book paper both directions.

If it passes, I go to the next higher grit. If not, back to the stone I had been using. Sometimes it gets a little tricky at higher grit levels, especially above 10K

 

[Bladenoobie1]

Hopefully in the next few months or so I can really improve my freehand. My biggest set back is the lack of knives to practice on. I can't afford to go on large spending sprees, so I limit the amount of knives I own. At the height of my "collection" I had 3 knives. 2 of which I sold and at the moment I only have 1 folder. I do also have a custom fixed, but I already gave it a nice clean edge and I don't want to mess with it when it is not needed. I will definitely invest in a good quality lope sometime in the near future and see how it helps me.

As of now I need to work on:

Improving my return stroke
Minimize hand rolling (sometimes I make my edge more convex than I'd like, probably a factor on some of my knives why I have trouble on the 4k)
Improve finishing steps (I rarely get a very clean edge off any of my stones and there are always a few burr fragments that I rely on my strop to remove)


Also props to this community and especially knifenut1013 which I'm pretty sure he has responded to every thread I made in the maintenance section.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

When you drop back down to the 1k from the 4k, does the scratch pattern develop evenly, or do you have to flatten more at the shoulder to reach a new apex?

Huh, that is a very good idea. I wish I had had that advice a few months ago!

Forget about counting strokes/side - work and observe, repeat as needed, work where its needed.

+1

My biggest set back is the lack of knives to practice on. I can't afford to go on large spending sprees, so I limit the amount of knives I own.

Sharpening knives for other people drastically increased my comfort with knife sharpening. I've got 10 knives or so in my closet right now that need to be sharpened. And for the most part, they need to be rebeveled, too. I just started telling people I'd sharpen their knives for free, and then I put an ad in the office newsletter. Now random people come up to me to ask me to sharpen their knives. The constant work, the variety of knives, and the regular repair/reprofiling practice are very valuable.

Also props to this community and especially knifenut1013 which I'm pretty sure he has responded to every thread I made in the maintenance section.

knifenut is legit and has the vids to prove it. :thumbup::thumbup:

 

[Bladenoobie1]

One thing I could do is begin sharpening knives for scouts in my Boy Scout troop. Most of the knives they own are cheap 8cr13mov knives or SAKs. They're all pretty darn dull and not in the best of conditions, so I'm sure they wouldn't mind if the bevel wasn't perfect.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

One thing I could do is begin sharpening knives for scouts in my Boy Scout troop. Most of the knives they own are cheap 8cr13mov knives or SAKs. They're all pretty darn dull and not in the best of conditions, so I'm sure they wouldn't mind if the bevel wasn't perfect.

That's a great idea! Those will make great practice. However, it sounds like you've got the process down up to the last finishing stones, where is where you are encountering problems. I can tell you that it isn't worth taking a SAK to 4k water stones. However, you can do so for practice.

I've got a Shapton Glass 500 on the way (accidentally ordered when I thought knifenut was recommending it... he was actually recommending a Beston 500, LOL). I think that's where I'll stop with this type of knife in the future and then finish on the HH Washboard with black BR compound. That should make for an appropriate edge with softer stainless steels and el cheapos.

 

[Ben Dover]

I've got a Shapton Glass 500 on the way (accidentally ordered when I thought knifenut was recommending it... he was actually recommending a Beston 500, LOL). I think that's where I'll stop with this type of knife in the future and then finish on the HH Washboard with black BR compound. That should make for an appropriate edge with softer stainless steels and el cheapos.

You'll never regret getting the Shapton 500 Glass. Great stone, Ime.