How to refine an edge

[dlong]

I've been freehand sharpening for about one year. I use the CKTG 400/1000 diamond plate, which gives me an edge that will slice phonebook paper both ways. Further refinement is done variously with a stropman green compound strop, MDS and 1 micron diamond paste, Spyderco UF benchstone, and printer paper strop in various combinations. A Dazor 10x LED magnifier is used to monitor the edges for burrs. On my thrift store/mystery steel beaters and Henkels, I can get a sharp edge adequate for kitchen chores, but I'm not getting the laser edges I see on YouTube videos. I'm ready to purchase another stone, maybe a Shapton glass or DMT f/ef in hopes of bringing a more refined edge to the strops. I'm not sure how to use them. Do I need to raise a burr on each side on the higher-grit stones? Edge-leading? Scrubbing? Edge trailing? How do I know when I'm ready for the strops? I should mention that I will be sharpening midtech folders at some point when I'm more confident in my technique. I need something that will work for Elmax, s30v, vg10, ats34, m4, etc.

Suggestions re: next stone and technique will be much appreciated. As an aside, I'm aware that the materials I have now will give excellent edges in the hands of some of you, but this is a hobby I'm enjoying. I find I learn something new from each new sharpening device.

 

[pyrrha1]

Shapton glass stones are awesome. They will cut any steel that you lay across them.

Magnification at higher grits works wonders for letting you know when to move on to the next grot.

 

[pyrrha1]

Shapton glass stones are awesome. They will cut any steel that you lay across them.

Magnification at higher grits works wonders for letting you know when to move on to the next grot.

Sp grit

 

[bucketstove]

I've been freehand sharpening for about one year. I use the CKTG 400/1000 diamond plate, which gives me an edge that will slice phonebook paper both ways. Further refinement is done variously with a stropman green compound strop, MDS and 1 micron diamond paste, Spyderco UF benchstone, and printer paper strop in various combinations. A Dazor 10x LED magnifier is used to monitor the edges for burrs. On my thrift store/mystery steel beaters and Henkels, I can get a sharp edge adequate for kitchen chores, but I'm not getting the laser edges I see on YouTube videos. I'm ready to purchase another stone, maybe a Shapton glass or DMT f/ef in hopes of bringing a more refined edge to the strops. I'm not sure how to use them. Do I need to raise a burr on each side on the higher-grit stones? Edge-leading? Scrubbing? Edge trailing? How do I know when I'm ready for the strops? I should mention that I will be sharpening midtech folders at some point when I'm more confident in my technique. I need something that will work for Elmax, s30v, vg10, ats34, m4, etc.

Suggestions re: next stone and technique will be much appreciated. As an aside, I'm aware that the materials I have now will give excellent edges in the hands of some of you, but this is a hobby I'm enjoying. I find I learn something new from each new sharpening device.

Hi,
what do you mean by "laser edges"?
Shave arm hair, whittle coarse/thick/beard hairs ?
Push cut phonebook paper?
Whittle thin head hairs , tree topping ?

Are you raising a burr intentionally or are you grinding until you can't see reflection?
How are you deburring?
high/double angle passe?
ultra-light passes?
crossing the scratches?
short strokes?
back sharpening , few strokes at original angle after deburring or microbeveling?

Could you please detail one sharpening , angle, number of strokes on what stone, if you raise a burr or erase reflection, can you slice paper before moving on from coarse stone...



I read on the internet the spyderco ultra fines are about same (or finer) than the extra extra fine dmt , which load less than the sharpmaker stones ...


You can see a description/steps about getting tree topping with sharpmaker Sharpening Curriculum / Trouble sharpening super blue - Spyderco Forums



Regarding higher grits, if you use soft muddy waterstones, they should automatically keep a burr from forming and prepare the apex for microbeveling with the spyderco ultra fine stones

So on the higher grits, you'd scrub lightly (1/2lb ) until the finish takes on the shine you're interested in,
and since the mud (ideally) keeps a burr from forming
then jump straight to spyderoco ultra fine, raise the angle a little and do a few light alternating strokes, like under 100 grams, like 20 grams


Cliff discusses this idea of preparing the apex for high polish apex with mud in 3 stone recommendation and also in some of the videos in his Sharpening playlist and stone reviews (cutting speed / cutting fluids / maintenance / durability / steel suitability / pressure/PSI before a stone starts releasing grit)

So, if I were in your position,
I might thinkresearch about a King KDS 1k/6k ( ASIN:B01BB1ZDVW ) New Style for Sharpening Harder Steels
which might have these burr minimization properties,
also a much thicker stone (more abrasive) than shapton glass stones

 

[bgentry]

The question is, what are you looking for? Shiny bevels? Some level of performance you haven't reached?

Since you say you can make edges that do things like slice phonebook paper in both directions, it seems like you are making sharp edges. Maybe you have trouble making sharp edges on some blades? If you can tell us what you want, someone can make a recommendation.

Looking at your list, it seems like you have a missing stone or two, since you jump from a "diamond 1000" to a spyderco ultra fine or a strop with 1 micron compound. I would think that something like a Spyderco medium stone, or the equivalent might be a good thing to have. I'd need to see the scratch pattern from your 1000 to be sure. A DMT EF might be a good stone, though it might be too close to the "1000". Again, scratch pattern tells the tale.

Brian.

 

[dlong]

Thanks to pyrrha1, bucketstove and bgentry for the responses. My best edges will draw cut phone book paper, but not push cut without a slight initial draw. When I try the Murray Carter 3 finger test. even my best freehand edges don't compare to the best edges I can get off my KME. My freehad edges will shave what little hair I have left, but not tree-top or whittle hair. As I said, good enough for kitchen chores, but I really want to get better at this whole freehand thing. Even allowing for the fact that the steels I am working on may not be the best, I have to believe that my technique is the limiting factor. I can get a polished edge if I spend enough time on the strops, but it's not always a sharper edge.

If I raise a burr on both sides with the 1000 grit diamonds, remove the burr with light edge-leading strokes until I can see so reflection under magnification, am I done with that stone? Even if it's not as sharp as I would like? Do I need to raise a burr on a higher grit stone or just do light and alternating passes? Just look for finer scratches? Wish I could do a macro photo to show my edges but I'm not able to do that at present. Got to admit, I haven't paid much attention to scratch pattern. I'm a bit intimidated by the whole waterstone thing, but thinking of trying a DMT EF or even EEF. Maybe I just need more patience and more time at the bench.

 

[bucketstove]

Hi

My best edges will draw cut phone book paper, but not push cut without a slight initial draw.

What grit ? With grain or against the grain of the phonebook paper?
That sounds like you've still got burr, so double angle deburr again, and backsharpen, see below

I can get a polished edge if I spend enough time on the strops, but it's not always a sharper edge.

How much time (how many strokes?)
and what angle ?
and how much force (pounds/grams on a scale)?

Try this,
after you've polished it up nice and pretty,
go back to spyderco ultrafine and do one single pass per side ultra light (20 grams)
check if sharper, if not, repeat one single pass per side, then check again
If it doesn't work try it with 1000 diamond

If I raise a burr on both sides with the 1000 grit diamonds, remove the burr with light edge-leading strokes until I can see so reflection under magnification, am I done with that stone? Even if it's not as sharp as I would like?

After deburring you're supposed to back sharpen/back beveling,
to minimize/micronize the microbevel,
which is do 1-10 alternating passes per side, edge leading, using light force
at your original non-deburring angle,
If its still not sharp enough, repeat , first deburr
-increase the edge angle significantly (double it at least)
-use very light force as in 5-10 grams
-use very short strokes (1" or so)
-alternate sides, 1-2 alternations should cut off the burr.
then backsharpen (minimize microbevel)
then check for sharpness

Do I need to raise a burr on a higher grit stone or just do light and alternating passes?

No, you don't need to raise a burr,
just light alternating passes,
check for sharpness, run deburring routine if needed

... Maybe I just need more patience and more time at the bench.

I think so yes,
practice with the same knife ,
count strokes per side and write it down in a notebook
and don't go past 1000 grit,
once you erase reflection (or raise a burr) and you're microbeveling do no more than 5 passes per side
repeat deburring and backsharpening a few times until you can do a push cut on phonebook paper

just do the same knife three times in a row, count strokes, write it down, repeat ...
think positive, it will happen

You might find this recent thread interesting
I lost it. I can't get a blade to do a true 90 across the grain anymore.

 

[bgentry]

My best edges will draw cut phone book paper, but not push cut without a slight initial draw.[...]As I said, good enough for kitchen chores, but I really want to get better at this whole freehand thing.

Ok, so you want to push the envelope on refinement. Sharp and refined aren't the same. But refined can be fun to play with and do fun tricks (circles in paper, treetop hair, etc).

Even allowing for the fact that the steels I am working on may not be the best, I have to believe that my technique is the limiting factor.

You've got the right idea. Technique is where it's at. You might get something out of my Seven Secrets Of Sharpening. I wrote it for an audience that's pretty much exactly you: Someone who's already good at sharpening, but thinks they can do better. I'm not sure if it will help you or not, but there's only one way to find out. Give it a read and see what you think.

If I raise a burr on both sides with the 1000 grit diamonds, remove the burr with light edge-leading strokes until I can see so reflection under magnification, am I done with that stone? Even if it's not as sharp as I would like?

I detail this in 7 Secrets, but a LOT of people that "raise a burr on both sides" stop way too soon and don't get a full length burr. Until you have a full length burr that you can easily detect, you won't be sure that you've completely apexed the blade. Maybe you're already doing this. Maybe not.

Do I need to raise a burr on a higher grit stone or just do light and alternating passes? Just look for finer scratches?

That's a matter of debate. I usually raise smaller burrs with each stone/belt/etc, but it's not strictly necessary. As long as you are otherwise sure that you have done two things:

1. Changed the scratch pattern on the edge bevel to the level you want it, or to the level that this stone is capable of producing.
2. This new scratch pattern has reached the very apex of the edge bevel.

Some people would say that raising a burr is counter productive because removing that burr requires effort, and it's not always super easy to do. Other people would tell you that raising a burr is the only way to be super sure you have apexed the blade. I'm in both camps really. I also don't claim to be an amazing sharpener. I think I'm actually pretty good; better than anyone I've ever met face to face. But I'm certain that other people here are way, way better at this than I am.

I'm not sure if I say this explicitly in 7 Secrets, but here's something to think about:

90% or so of your effort should happen with your most coarse stone. The edge coming off of the coarse stone should be very very sharp. Maybe it won't pop hairs off of your arm, but it should be *sharp* heel to tip. Something like a DMT Coarse should produce an edge that easily shaves arm hair in a fairly impressive way and clean slices phonebook paper. Maybe with a little bit of draw. If your coarse edges aren't impressive, then refining them is mostly a waste of time. Get good edges with the most coarse stone and your refined edges are going to improve markedly.

Brian.

 

[Otto Carpenter]

That was a very interesting read, bgentry. Seems like achieving the skill level to properly sharpen a knife requires serious time (and interest). Do you accept knives for sharpening?

 

[bgentry]

I've done quite a few sharpenings for other people. Mostly with pretty bad knives. I'm able to get almost any blade sharp, other than really terrible throw away knives. I've done a little bit of sharpening for money.

I would probably be willing to accept knives for sharpening, but this forum has pretty strict rules about services performed by members. You have to be a paying member of a certain type to be a "service provider". Some guys I *highly* respect in this forum are in that category. So I wouldn't be able to accept anything from a member here, for pay, without first becoming a service provider member myself.

Honestly, I'm pretty confident in my ability to sharpen common blade types and get 99% of them very sharp. But my ability to make really pretty, very uniform, "show off" bevels I'm less confident in. I can generally correct minor geometry problems, regrind tips, and all of the basics. But a lot of people that want a "pro sharpening" are looking for really nice cosmetics also and I don't excel in that area. I'm passable, but I'm not even in the same sport as someone like Jason B or Josh (razor edge) in this respect.

Brian.