How to test the heat treat of a dagger?

C

Cloudstrife

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Sep 14, 2019
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Hello I am soon to have a custom dagger gifted to me by a journeyman knife maker, I don’t actually intent to use this dagger but I still want to make sure the heat treat is good. How would I test it? Few thrusts into pine? Sorry for the newbie question.
 
thrusting un-heat treated steel into pine will work just as well ; ) ... so that is a horrible test

some basic tests can be done:
ensure a file 'skates' off the edge - this only answers if it has been hardened (or quenched)
bend it a certain amount - over 10 or 15 degrees to ensure it doesn't snap or stay bent - this generally answers whether or not it's been tempered

for what it's worth - the 'master smith' test from ABS goes all the way 90 degrees - (crazy I know) - VERY careful - this will snap most knives
but here is how they test

"BENDING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO SHOW THAT THE APPLICANT IS ABLE TO HEATTREAT A KNIFE WITH A SOFT BACK AND A HARD EDGE.The bending of the blade is the final test. Safety gear should be worn. The edge and pointwill be dulled prior to bending. The Master Smith will mark a line across the width of the blade approximately three (3) inches from the tip of the blade. The blade will then be inserted intovise, tip first, such that the blade is placed into the vise up to the mark on the blade. If the vise jaws are very rough, smooth metal or hardwood inserts may be placed on each side ofthe clamped portion of the blade to protect it when bending the test knife. The blade shall be bent by force applied to the handle. A leverage device, such as a pipe may be used aslong as it does not pose a safety risk. The use of such a device is at the sole risk of the applicant and at the discretion of the supervising Master Smith. The applicant will then bendthe blade ninety (90) degrees"

from http://www.americanbladesmith.com/uploads/file/Testing/MS_Test_FINAL_11-04-2019.pdf
 
T
dirc said:
thrusting un-heat treated steel into pine will work just as well ; ) ... so that is a horrible test

some basic tests can be done:
ensure a file 'skates' off the edge - this only answers if it has been hardened (or quenched)
bend it a certain amount - over 10 or 15 degrees to ensure it doesn't snap or stay bent - this generally answers whether or not it's been tempered

for what it's worth - the 'master smith' test from ABS goes all the way 90 degrees - (crazy I know) - VERY careful - this will snap most knives
but here is how they test

"BENDING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO SHOW THAT THE APPLICANT IS ABLE TO HEATTREAT A KNIFE WITH A SOFT BACK AND A HARD EDGE.The bending of the blade is the final test. Safety gear should be worn. The edge and pointwill be dulled prior to bending. The Master Smith will mark a line across the width of the blade approximately three (3) inches from the tip of the blade. The blade will then be inserted intovise, tip first, such that the blade is placed into the vise up to the mark on the blade. If the vise jaws are very rough, smooth metal or hardwood inserts may be placed on each side ofthe clamped portion of the blade to protect it when bending the test knife. The blade shall be bent by force applied to the handle. A leverage device, such as a pipe may be used aslong as it does not pose a safety risk. The use of such a device is at the sole risk of the applicant and at the discretion of the supervising Master Smith. The applicant will then bendthe blade ninety (90) degrees"

from http://www.americanbladesmith.com/uploads/file/Testing/MS_Test_FINAL_11-04-2019.pdf
Click to expand...

Thank you for all of that information I appreciate it, another newbie question, will the file trick still apply to a stainless steel (aus8)?
 
Daggers are usually meant for stabbing in a self-defense / sentinel-dispatch situation. Other than that, they don't offer a usefull blade shape for general cutting. For stabbing, anything pointy will work, hardened or not, tempered or not. You might snap it if you stick it between someones ribs and pry sideways though... If the edge is soft, it doesn't matter much, it only needs to work once, no need to keep an edge forerever and flesh is shoft.

On a more serious note, if you also don't plan on using it, I woudn't touch it. All the test mentioned above, are potentially destructive. If you check for hardness with a file, chances are you will scratch the blade (if it is polished, you are ruining it). If you check for tempering while bending it, you can either snap it or permanently bend it, or damaging the handle (which is where you will probably slide the piece of pipe/square tube for levering). If you get some bend on the tang and the scales are glued... you will probably detach the scales, if they are pinned or screwed, you will bend the pins/screws.

BTW if you are set on checking for hardness on the very edge, they sell sets of special files, each hardened to a certain RC hardness, that allow you, by comparison, to approximate the hardness of the test piece. Say the RC50 skates on the edge but the RC55 scratches it... well, then you know your edge is somwhere between RC50 and RC55.

Do you have any pictures of the dagger?

Mikel
 
It was a gift from the maker? Ask him how he tested it.

the least destructive way to test it for me would be to use it. See if the edge chips or rolls, see how well it holds an edge see how it sharpens.

I’d also like to see pictures of it.
 
Buy a rockwell hardness tester. It's the only way to be sure. :thumbsup:
7EvxZGn.jpg
 
Cloudstrife said:
Hello I am soon to have a custom dagger gifted to me by a journeyman knife maker, I don’t actually intent to use this dagger but I still want to make sure the heat treat is good. How would I test it? Few thrusts into pine? Sorry for the newbie question.
Click to expand...
So, story straight...this dagger is being gifted to you and you have no intentions of using it, but if it isn't hardened you will return it? :confused:o_O
 
i know in England we have a lot of history when it comes to daggers and bowies you could read get tought by Eric fairbarn ( he like razor sharp daggers) look at old British 1800 and befor training with them thay we're used for slashing as well depending on the type of dagger you might get some test ideas from history
 
unwisefool said:
You are going to return a gift? After you potentially messed it up with a file? Isn't that sort of, um, insulting to the maker?

Also, if you don't plan on using it, why do you care about the hardness? This whole post is weird
Click to expand...
I’m a weird dude.
 
Sorry, but if like you said, you're not going to use it, what difference does it make?
 
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