How to use a stone

[Bill DeShivs]

I guess I've stirred up enough stuff about sharpening.
Here is a tutorial on how to do it. It dosn't matter what kind of stone you use- diamond, India, Arkansas, ceramic, water, even Carborundum-as long as the stone is reasonably fine grit. The finer the stone, the slower it will cut, but the sharper the edge. It seems like most of you guys have tried all the jig-type sharpeners, so why not give this method a try?
The stone should be level, and secured to a flat surface. Pull or push (it doesn't matter) the edge on the stone at an angle (15-20 degrees) keeping the angle consistent. That is the hard part. Turn the blade over and repeat. Alternate strokes. Don't do one side at a time. Repeat until sharp. If the edge feels rough,you need to repeat with a finer stone. Don't press hard. Get a feel for the cutting ability of the stone. As the edge approaches sharp you can lighten your strokes.
DO NOT LAY THE BLADE FLAT ON THE STONE!
Practice on junk knives until you have the technique down pat. The blade should be sharp and not scratched. More to come.
Bill

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Some knives come with an edge bevel that is entirely too acute. It can take forever to rebevel on a bench stone. Here is where your Lansky/Edgepro/Sharpmaker tools can come in handy. I prefer a belt grinder or file, but any method that can remove the excess metal quickly will work.
Hand sharpening will actually give you a slight convex edge-something many are working way too hard to get.
Using a magic marker to establish where you are cutting is a good idea if you need it.
When stoning, use a light touch so as to not bend the final edge. Let the stone do the cutting.
Use oil, water, WD 40, or whatever the stone requires.
Bill

 

[JDBLADE]

I can't agree you are assuming that every knife is the same and that the edge profile is correct to begin with. If you did this with a butchers knife it would be lucky to last a day in the shop because the original angle and shoulders of the blade are all wrong. IMO and I have been sharpening for a number of years including professionally regardless of angle the first thing is to raise the burr on one side of the blade before moving to the other side. Once this is done you can move to the stone in alternate strokes and changine to a fine stone and reducing your pressure until only the weight of the knife is on the stone. I have simplified the actual process here but for me it doesn't matter whether it is a butchers steak knife or custom made knife the process is similar and it is the same whether you use a stone, a belt system or a system such as Spyderco's or Lansky's.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

See above. I don't assume edge profiles are always the same. It doen't matter whether you do one side at a time, as long as both angles are the same. The easiest way to ensure this is to alternate strokes.
Thanks for your input.
Bill

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The finer the stone, the slower it will cut, but the sharper the edge.

The type of cutting you do will determine the optimal finish, knives left with a lower grit finish will cut better on some media. Different stones also cut at different rates so grit isn't the only factor. Various fine waterstones for example can cut way faster than more coarse oil stones.

Pull or push (it doesn't matter) the edge on the stone at an angle (15-20 degrees) keeping the angle consistent.

Pushing or pulling makes a large influence on burr formation, and the angle you choose should depend on the steel in the knife, the skill of the user and its application. Those two angles are very heavy duty, see Lee's book on sharpening where he indicates *much* lower angles for kitchen/utility knives, and goes as far as to suggest to lay them right against the sharpening media for various types.

Some knives come with an edge bevel that is entirely too acute. It can take forever to rebevel on a bench stone.

That should probably be obtuse not acute, and reprofiling with a proper stone is only a matter of minutes on a small folder, to cut the edge from 20 to ten for example.

-Cliff

 

[JDBLADE]

I think this article by Joe Talmadge is most appropriate http://www.edcknives.com/pdf-files/Sharpen_v2.pdf

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Cliff
What is it with you? Did I piss you off or something?
Bill

 

[db]

Bill stick around it’s not you Cliff loves discussing just about everything. We've all been through it at 1 time or another.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Did I piss you off or something?

It is the arguement, the person is irrelevant. Read the work Mike Swaim presented on rec.knives about a dozen years ago which contradicts most of what you noted in the above, specifically the effect of lowering edge angles on cutting ability and edge retention.

He was the first person I saw present the idea that the greater cutting ability could supercompensate for the lower durability as well the idea that there was a threshold not a simple decrease thus you could get better edge lifetime with reducing edge angles and further with leaving them coarse. Alvin has presented similar with high polishes with really acute edges.

Joe Talmadge repeated a lot of Swaims work, mainly with higher end knives, specifically tactical folders. You can read similar commentary in Lee's book, though he doesn't provide the level of detail that Swaim and Talmadge did, but makes the same general conclusions just a lot more vague.

In regards to the push/pull effect on burr formation, read what Clark has said, who would also easily be an "authority", being an engineer, who also sharpened knives to make money at one point. Generally, pull stroke tend to create edge burrs more readily and are not effective at removing them.

-Cliff

 

[GarageBoy]

Also, besure to lift your wrist a little to acomodate for the belly

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Cliff
We are talking about generally-accepted sharpening methods here. How would you feel if someone took your advise to sharpen a Buster Warenski knife he happened upon? Or, would you care?
The generally-accepted method will not harm a blade-if properly done. This method has been getting knives acceptably sharp for hundreds of years. Your method will make an edge sharp. It will ruin the blade finish, and could contribute to edge failure. Why must you persist? Go sharpen your butcher knives any way you want to, but please stop inferring that it is the preferred method. It is YOUR preferred method, not one that is viewed as wise by many, except in rare instances.
Any good knife is a potential collector's item, but not if the blade is ruined. Ebay is full of toothpick blade knives that were sharpened your way. They don't bring much.
Bill

 

[JDBLADE]

See above. I don't assume edge profiles are always the same. It doen't matter whether you do one side at a time, as long as both angles are the same. The easiest way to ensure this is to alternate strokes.
Thanks for your input.
Bill

You still don't respond to the matter of the creation of a "burr" - I cannot see how you are able to create a "burr" using alternate strokes from the beginning of the sharpening process. As I understand what has been written of late it is common practice to create a "burr" in the sharpening process. This has nothing to do with the "flat grind" method - again I refer to Joe Talmadge Sharpening document and can name numerous other referances.

 

[gbaker]

For anybody interested (and I admit I find it interesting) the preliminaries of this argument can be found at

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=371297&highlight=collector

 

[tim8557]

After a year or so of reading everything that I can put my hands on and a million sharpening threads...I remain about as confused as when I started. To me, it seems to say that there is NO one perfect way to do it.

Cliff seems to take the fast and functional approach with no consideration of the final aethetics. Bill seems more slanted to preserving the initial beauty of the blade. Cliff likes to "hear" himself type. Bill sees every comeback as an affront. Each of them probably ends up with a very sharp blade. The end user should determine which of the two above they would hire to sharpen their blades.

I lie somewhere in between. I purchase knives more from an obsessive compulsion than need. I have no intention of making them "safe queens" and getting into the reselling business. On the other hand, I see no need to scratching the hell out of them either. Hence I use an Edge Pro, Sharpmaker and leather strop.

I will continue to read everything I find (read the obsessive part) as I enjoy the challenge of making a knife sharper. Conceptually, the priniples of sharpening are very simple; the execution is difficult. Kind of like reading a putt perfectly, the hard part is rolling the ball correctly after the "read".

I have figured out that consistent angle is key (I would guess that is the downside to freehand) and reaching a burr is key as well.

BTW, Cliff and Bill, please do not flame back at me as I mean no harm. I enjoy and learn from your threads all of the time so keep 'em coming.

 

[db]

The burr method is just that 1 method of many. It surely isn't necessary to raise a burr. In fact there are many really good sharpeners that say you shouldn't raise a burr at all. I do use the burr but I'm not the best sharpener out here,

 

[Nosmo]

In fact there are many really good sharpeners that say you shouldn't raise a burr at all.

I find this hard to understand. I accept that there are lots of different ways to sharpen a blade, but if you fail to 'raise a burr', surely that means that you have not brought the two sides ( bevels) to a point.

In my book. No burr = no sharp.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It surely isn't necessary to raise a burr.

Some steels won't burr very much even if you sharpen one side only, ideally sharpening evenly hones the bevel from both sides to the required finish. This is however frustrating on some steels because if it fails it gives no reason forcing an examination of the edge under mag. The burr method immediately tells you where there is a problem when one comes up.

Typically when reprofiling I hone one edge all the way down and then swap, alternating sides, would make it harder for angle control freehand. Once I have the edge formed and I apply the micro bevel alternating sides as I don't want to create a burr here, it will happen anyway to some extent on most steels, the problem is getting rid of it usually.

Jeff has described the current method I use for micro-beveling, it is based on what he came up with, and he has described in in detail.

Cliff seems to take the fast and functional approach with no consideration of the final aethetics.

For my knives, they are just tools I use to cut things with, just like a shovel is used to dig a hole. I am as concerned about the finish on both equally.

On the other hand, I see no need to scratching the hell out of them either.

Use does this, my blades have more use scratches than sharpening marks, unless you only cut very light materials this will happen immediately, if you cut used material, especially so.

How would you feel if someone took your advise to sharpen a Buster Warenski knife he happened upon?

If someone asked me how to sharpen said knife I would first ask him what he wanted from the performance and go from there.

It will ruin the blade finish ...

It doesn't have to, just tape the blade. The Edge Pro system has the same problem, and the same solution.

...and could contribute to edge failure.

Yes, I note this all the time :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372713

So you learn from and adjust accordingly as I did later on in the thread. Once you do it with one knife you don't have to keep doing the same level R&D with every other knife, so benchmark off a few cheap ones to save wear on the high end ones.

This of course goes with sharpening and use in general of course. The goal is to create the edge profile of the minimum cross section for necessary durability, anything more reduces cutting ability with no functional gain and increases sharpening time and reduces efficiency and safety as a tool.

To determine this optimal profile takes experimentation and some waste, it can be minimal if you go slowly in steps, but I prefer to go all the way down and work up as it is faster and at most I lose a fraction of a mm anyway on utility knives, which is a small percentage of their lifetime, and my lifetime is more important to me than the knives, so I waste its time not mine.

It is YOUR preferred method ...

I didn't invent it, I am not the only one that uses it, despite your insistence otherwise lots of makers and manufacturers recommend this sharpening method for various types of knives, of various grinds all the way from small utility/hunters to large wood choppers. I use it on some of my knives, it depends on the steel and what I am doing with the knife.

Ebay is full of toothpick blade knives that were sharpened your way. They don't bring much.

Sharpening full grinds actually preserves the knives, they wear out faster without attention to the primary bevel and have to be retired sooner because they become useless. In regards to being a collector item, it is illogical to complain about the effect of sharpening when use is a far more detrimental effect. I can sharpen a knife a dozen times and not have the reduction in lifetime induced by hitting a small staple when opening a cardboard box or hitting a rock covering some brush.

-Cliff

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Well, I've certainly learned something here!
Bill