How warm is wool when used in layering?

Macchina

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To start, I will admit I am a wool fanatic. I use a lot of Icebreaker and Smartwool in the form of t-shirts and mid to heavy layers for the early spring and fall. Socks, hats, gloves: all merino wool when I'm outdoors. The benifits of wool I'm most drawn to are it's stink resistance and moisture management. I wear wool in the winter while moving, but don't know if it makes a good layering option by weight. Base later is always wool, but per pound isn't down and fleece (polypros, UA heatgear, polartec,etc.)a lot warmer than wool when stink or moisture management is not needed. I say this because I love my heavyweight (360 g/m^2) Icebreaker sweater is awsome as my only warm layer in the fall (50 degree days 35, degree nights), however I find it heavy to bring during winter hikes when I'm also bringing a down coat and various underlayers. Having said that, I just don't know what it's warmth to weight
ratio is.

Does anyone know how wool compares to fleece and down from actual test results? I understand the many benefits of a wool baselayer, so I'm looking for insulation figures on the heavy stuff.
 
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Wow! I'm shocked that Polartec would post proof on their website of polyesters superiority to wool. That is in stark contrast to Pepsi Cola, which has on their website many studies which prove that their soda sucks when compared to Coca Cola in several blind taste test and scientific studies conducted by independent labs.

I think Wool is warm in layering. I like it. You'll hear other opinions. I believe Militaries around the world still use wool in their blankets instead of polyester when polyester would be less expensive at least initially.
 
I like wool (different weights as needed) under a waterproof breathable shell. Never really liked fleece, so can't compare for you.
 
For layering, wool is superior to extruded poly (fleece, etc) for it's wind-resistance and warmer-when-wet properties (not to mention funk resistance!!!). This comes as a high-cost in terms of weight and price, but i think it's well-worth it. Admittedly, i currently don't have any wool pieces in my clothing line-up except hats and socks. I used to have a couple very nice sweaters, but they wore out over the years. So, given the higher price of wool, i use fleece in my layering system. It's the one area i can cut cost with minimal negative affect.

Military's around the world still use wool because "low-quality" wool (the scratchy stuff) is still very cheap as it's not used in the garment industry. Additionally, there is a huge, annually replenished world-wide supply of this kind of wool so that keeps the prices low. Poly is added by mills only if/when the lower quality poly is sourced and even then blended with wool.

By weight, *high-quality, high-loft* down is the warmest. However, it's highly moisture-susceptible which ruins it's insulative capability. In my experience, down sleeping bags reign supreme over all other materials - except when only a hefty blanket is needed - say from +50F and above. Otherwise, down wins. The age-old debates about how synth bags keep you warm when wet is a grossly exaggerated one and if your sleeping bag is wet there are other more serious problems to contend with.
 
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Wow! I'm shocked that Polartec would post proof on their website of polyesters superiority to wool. That is in stark contrast to Pepsi Cola, which has on their website many studies which prove that their soda sucks when compared to Coca Cola in several blind taste test and scientific studies conducted by independent labs. I think Wool is warm in layering. I like it. You'll hear other opinions. I believe Militaries around the world still use wool in their blankets instead of polyester when polyester would be less expensive at least initially.
If I didn't know better I'd suspect you were trying to be sarcastic. That information was extracted from a .pdf file at discoverytrekking.com........................................................................................................................................ Whatever, the essential feature of that document if we are to think critically is that it tells you which apparatus was used to take the measurements, in this case a Reeves Thermal tester. The tests may be replicated. In the event of faulty data we even have the serial number of the test machine 1623. It might be that machine generated errors. It might be that it is not the appropriate machine for the industry to use. Who knows, we can speculate BS all day long about how perhaps they had a subtard that couldn't work SPSS or something. Yet until I hear something solid to refute that test beyond “because I say so” I shall continue to place the smart money on that.
 
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I have no science or fancy flow-charts to back it up, but wool seems to have a wider comfort band in terms of temperature range than the synthetic stuff. While I own more of the synthetics, a long sleeve SmartWool shirt likely goes on first when the daytime highs are anywhere in the single digits or lower. With synthetics, it seems I'm either cold or sweating, not a lot of time in between...
 
Speaking of cold weather clothing, the advantages of wool are: 1) up to 30% of its weight, wool both absorbs moisture so it does not evaporate on your skin (cooling); 2) actually generates warmth by exothermic reaction; and 3) resistance to flames and sparks.

The disadvantages of wool compared to polyester fleece or batting are: 1) significantly lower abrasion resistance and tensile strength (wear and tear); 2) greater weight for a given insulation value (insulation = trapped 'dead" air); 3) significantly harder to get dry when wet; 4) above 30% by weight, more moisture absorbed leads to sharp drop in insulation value; 5) much more difficult to maintain in the field; 6) stink when wet (Doesn't bother me.); and 7) skin irritation for some users.

(Polypropylene is an obsolescent skin layer that is famous for "Polypro Stink," a problem unknown to polyester (provided you have access to detergent and water)' "Polypro" is also infamous for melting at normal clothes dryer temperatures.)

Balancing those factors, wool is often the choice for socks. For all other applications, all Arctic and Antarctic expeditions, except those from New Zealand use polyester fleece or batting for insulation layers (See comments on objectivity of Polartec above and consider all those herds of sheep in NZ.).

I remember when the above judgment became almost universal. Suddenly, we had all these wonderful German and Swedish wool military surplus trousers and shirts on the market cheap. Those days are long gone. The supply is much more limited and the prices much higher as the supply dried up due to first-world militaries shifting from wool to polyester and nylon (outer layers).

As to down, you perspire all the time as your body attempts to maintain 100% relative humidity next to your skin. Conditions of activity, relative humidity, temperature, sun, and wind mediate how much you perspire. In cold weather, the warm, moist air created by body heat and perspiration migrates outwards until it reaches "dew point," at which location water vapor becomes liquid water. That location is more and more likely to be closer and closer to your skin as the outside temperature is colder. This means condensation inside the garment - be it a coat or sleeping bag. So if you do not have access to good drying conditions, a down garment steadily absorbs the water and steadily loses its insulation value when worn. This is true regardless of any other factor. It is not at all unusual for a sleeping bag to lose 1/2" of total loft a night.

So when I was backpacking a lot in California and elsewhere in the West, down was a fantastic choice. Down garments, including sleeping garments, went on a rock in the sun every morning and whenever needed, and all was well.

I arrived in Ohio and have used my beloved down bag outdoors once in thirty-five years. The lumps were palpable the first rainy morning and Saturday night was not comfortable.

Turns out down is difficult to dry out in the field when it is overcast and damp day after day. Polyester, being hydrophobic, does not absorb water into the fibers and has a much reduced problem with condensation as a result, especially the upper-scale polyesters that are silicone coated. In extreme conditions, such as a sled run to the North Pole, collection of ice inside polyester bags required air drops of replacement bags. Nothing can stop physics. Still, you want condensation inside a polyester garment not a down garment (except in unusual circumstances) and Eddie Bauer cannot stop that condensation.
 
The correct answer is 'it depends'. It depends on the yarn, the weave, the thickness, treatment, content etc. However there are some general properties of wool that you can expect, and some have already been touched on. Based on my personal experience, the percentages I don't necessarily agree with...

1) Wool is breathable, much moreso than polyester.
2) Wool is impregnated with natural oils that tend to shed body odor and prevent foreign particles from being retained in it.
3) Wool retains 90% of its insulation value when wet.
4) Wool absorbs up to 90% of its weight in water before 'feeling wet'.
5) It dries more quickly than most other natural fibers
6) Hatidua hit the nail on the head: It is much more forgiving when used in layering, in that it is comfortable over a wider range of temperatures compared to polyester fleece.

based on weight, polyester may have more insulation value, but when you throw in sweat, rain, humidity etc, and other issues that are GOING to happen when you are active outdoors, wool is a much more practical alternative to polyester in most situations.
 
Poly "pills" from wear and washing which decreases its effectiveness over time. Wool, longer term is a better choice as it does not loose it's effectiveness unless it meets a fleet of moths.
 
Well at any rate I am a big fan of wool. Seems to be more expensive, but as said before, I don't stink, insulates when wet, it won't melt to me. I even wear wool socks in the summer. It seems to create a very comfortable temperature around me. Not too hot or cold. It seems to breathe. I don't feel like I have a plastic bag next to my skin. It seems last fairly well. I also have fleece products as well, but I tend to use the wool most of the time. I pick up the best deals at the thrift stores during the summer. How warm is wool? I don't seem to overheat in it with activity. I stay just perfect.
 
I've found that both a poly t-shirt and a wool t-shirt as a base layer will keep me significantly warmer. For me the difference is that after 1 night my wife can smell the poly shirt from across the room, but I could wear the wool shirt for 4-5 days without that ever happening.

Merino wool fights my funk, so I prefer it.

I can also wear the merino t-shirts in summer. For me, they seem to keep me at a comfortable temperature and wick sweat well regardless of the temp outside.
 
Payette, might I know where you got your numbers? I am especially interested in the "Wool retains 90% of its insulation value when wet.
4) Wool absorbs up to 90% of its weight in water before 'feeling wet'" statements.

What is "wet" for your purposes? For some values it is safe to say that "wet" feels, well, wet, regardless of the material.

"Boiled wool" is far more wind resistant, thickness for thickness, than polyester fleece. I thought that reduced breathability was a good thing. That's why they say they boiled it, to make it shrink into something like felt for use as an outer garment.

What "polyester" do you find less breathable than wool? Taffeta?
 
Thomas,
Nice informative post

With nostagia I look at my clothing
Dare I age myself?
But I grew up when there was only wool and canvas
And it is wonderful stuff

I still have my Blacks Canvas Anorak, and it a superb piece of equipment that fights the wind
My wool breeches and wool shirts of different weights gave me sterling service in sub zero conditions snowshoeing for weeks in New England and in just plain old wet and cold conditions of the British Hills.
And lets not forget my leather climbing boots that weighed a ton once wet and needed greasing.
And to go walking in the hills with a sweater, Harris Tweed Jacket and breeches is quite dashing

Even down is just wonderful in sub-zero, except after a couple of nights of a ten day trip the sleeping bag has absorbed sleeping moisture and begins to clump
Give me polyfill that can be wet and retain loft


Now I have equipment that performs better and is a fraction of the weight, with an ease of drying and quite inexpensive (if you do not by the fancy brands)
So for cold and wet conditions the modern fabrics are much lighter and easy to use

But I wish to say again with nostagia, for those that love wool and canvas, enjoy.
 
I've gotta get a couple Merino-wool undershirts!!!! My inexpensive synth ones utterly ROT after an overnight or 1 long day on the mountain. I do have some synth stretch boxer's that don't stink and really do a nice job for what they're called upon to perform (in probably the most inhospitable environment anywhere - 'nuff said....).

Incidently, the strategy/tool for eliminating moisture build-up in down sleeping bags is a VBL - Vapor-Barrier-Liner.

Maybe not for everyone, but i've used 'em in as cold as -30F in a -20F rated down bag and no moisture in the bag. In the tent, yes, but the sleeping bag was dry. The benefits of a down sleeping bag are well worth navigating the singular challenge. I've been using them for the last 12-15 years with great success. YMMV, but i'm still smiling at my 4lb -30F ready sleeping bag (that includes the VBL) after a long, up-hill, deep-snow-trail-busting day.
 
Swanndri (New Zealand type of clothing) use a special process with virgin wool where they stretch the wool in the loom. The weave is smaller than the fibre thickness. so when it's released, the garment becomes very water resistant. A national institution in NZ and they do know a little bit about wet weather. :rolleyes:
 
Swanndri (New Zealand type of clothing) use a special process with virgin wool where they stretch the wool in the loom. The weave is smaller than the fibre thickness. so when it's released, the garment becomes very water resistant. A national institution in NZ and they do know a little bit about wet weather. :rolleyes:
How does that effect the crimp? My understanding is that the best wool for insulation, that I used when answering the point of this thread, has about 100 per inch. Does that process violate that? I know that here hill sheep fleeces with a lot of kemp in are what has been used in an attempt to keep the weather out, for example Tweed. But that kemp, or hair, with little on no crimp to it makes it poxy as an insulation.
 
How does that effect the crimp? My understanding is that the best wool for insulation, that I used when answering the point of this thread, has about 100 per inch. Does that process violate that? I know that here hill sheep fleeces with a lot of kemp in are what has been used in an attempt to keep the weather out, for example Tweed. But that kemp, or hair, with little on no crimp to it makes it poxy as an insulation.

Kemp and crimp are new terms for me
What is 100 per inch?

Please could you explain?

thanks
 
How does that effect the crimp? My understanding is that the best wool for insulation, that I used when answering the point of this thread, has about 100 per inch. Does that process violate that? I know that here hill sheep fleeces with a lot of kemp in are what has been used in an attempt to keep the weather out, for example Tweed. But that kemp, or hair, with little on no crimp to it makes it poxy as an insulation.

Not sure about the technical side of things but for it's size and weight my Swannie shirt is one of my warmest garments.
Had it on again yesterday....love it !!!
 
Wool ranges in fineness from about 15 microns to about 50. Fine for clothing and fat for carpet. The stuff from down under that some people coo over, the so called 1PP, is less than 17 microns. Wool crimp refers to the amount of kinks in it per inch, and obviously would go hand in hand with fineness. Good wool for suits has about 100 crimps per inch – in short it is the expensive stuff for clothing because it can be spun into fine yarn. The raggedy hard stuff that has a relatively low market value has few crimps per inch. In addition to the wool fleeces also contain hair in various quantities and that isn't desirable. That hair is known as kemp. The amount of kemp in a fleece varies a lot between breeds, but a constant is that it probably only has single digit amounts of crimp per inch, mebe only a couple. Knitting a sweater from my dog's hair would be as good.
 
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